I n t e r v i e w s

Index:

Dave Bainbridge 10/28/06

Neal Morse  9/28/04

Dave Bainbridge of Iona 3/22/04

Carl Groves of Salem Hill  11/12/03

Kerry Livgren 10/21/02

Steve Babb of Glass Hammer  9/18/02

Brett Kull of Echolyn  7/30/02

Dave Bainbridge

At King's Church, Eastbourne, England

October 28, 2006  by Dave Taylor

Neal Morse

Neal Morse,  the former Spock's Beard front man, most graciously talked to me for an hour or so the other day. Here is a summary of my conversation.

September 28, 2004  by Dave Taylor

Neal Morse is a busy guy. Luckily for me, in between finishing up his new CD One and doing some solo shows, he found some time to talk to me on the phone for an hour or so. We talked about a lot of subjects ranging from progressive rock to the bible, and I figured you folks, being big fans and all, might be interested in what Neal is up to these days. I didn't record our conversation, so it's not formatted like a normal interview. But hopefully you'll still find it interesting.

Neal’s new progressive rock epic, to be entitled One, is due out November 2.  According to him, it is going to be a concept album based on the fall and redemption of man, from Genesis to Revelation, told from varying viewpoints. Ajalon bass player Randy George played an integral role in writing some of the songs as he spent a couple of weeks in the studio with Neal and phenom drummer Mike Portnoy.  Neal stated that he couldn’t use a lot of the musicians from the Testimony tour on the record because they lived in other states. He said it is mostly just him on guitar and keyboards, Mike Portnoy on drums, and Randy George on bass. Guitar legend and virtuoso Phil Keaggy stopped in to lay down a couple of incredible guitar solos on the album, and he also sings a duet with Neal as the voice of God on Cradle to the Grave. We talked about what a great guy Phil is. Neal told me that he had just ran into Phil the night before at a King’s X show in Nashville, and that he got to hang out with Phil and King's X afterwards. Jerry and Doug of King's X, as some of you may know, used to be in Phil's band in the Ph'lip Side era.

Here's the track list from One:

1. The Creation 18:22

I)                   One Min

dII)                 In a Perfect Light

III)              Where Are You?

IV)              Reaching from the Heart

2. The Mans Gone 2:50

3. Author of Confusion 9:30

4. The Separated Man 17:58

I)                   I'm in a Cage

II)                 I am The Man

III)              The Mans Gone (Reprise)

IV)              Something Within Me Remembers

5. Cradle to the Grave 4:55

6. Help Me/The Spirit and the Flesh 11:13

7. Father of Forgiveness 5:46

8. Reunion 9:11

I)                   No Separation

II)                 Grand Finale

III)              Make Us One

Total Time: 79:55

I asked Neal whether he ever consciously writes songs with Spock’s Beard fans in mind, or attempts to write in an evangelistic manner. He stated that things just sort of flow out, and that he only thinks about that stuff after songs are done.  He said he is sometimes concerned with not repeating himself musically, so he occasionally asks his band mates if they've heard what he's playing before somewhere.

I mentioned to Neal how much I enjoy the new Testimony Live DVD. The shots are all very professionally done and it sounds great. I was especially moved by the way Neal expresses the wonder of the supernatural encounter that transformed his life.  For more on the Testimony Live DVD,  I should have a review up shortly.

I asked whether Neal felt any kind  of a tug toward working in the local CCM industry, since he lives in Nashville.  He  said he didn’t really, he was happy with what he was doing himself, but was keeping his options open down the road. He has an unfinished CCM album he recorded a demo of right before Snow that has yet to see the light of day, and he said he has been negotiating with some Christian distributors and may work on it more this winter.

Apart from that, he has no current plans beyond the release of One, including tours. He is basically taking some time off until after Christmas.  He did mention that he is available to do some solo concerts (including at churches) in the near future, and interested folks can contact him through his website.

I asked Neal about his recording setup. He does all his home recording on ProTools on a PC, and then the tracks are then bounced into a Mac Pro Tools setup  for mixing and mastering. He mentioned a bunch of other musical gear he has been using, including real Hammonds and mini-moogs, a borrowed Gibson 335 guitar, and a Rode mic.

One thing I had to talk to him about was the incredible design and packaging on the Spock's Beard album Snow, which I have always been extremely impressed with. He said the designer/photographer is on staff with Inside Out, but he used to be freelance, and that all the photos and layout were done in Germany and just guided by a few emails that he had sent them giving some basic ideas to portray. Neal could not say enough about the guy, and even made sure I spelled his name right, Thomas Ewerhard. Ewehard has also done the packaging on the new One CD.

I asked him if he had any regrets with regard to Snow, how the promotion and tour support sort of fizzled when he left Spock's Beard. He said he felt bad for the Spock's Beard fans, but personally he is OK with it, and he is ok about not touring to support it.  Interestingly, Neal stated that he doesn’t think he could even sing Devil’s Got My Throat at this point in his spiritual walk.

I asked him some questions that some Virtuosity readers had forwarded to me, and we talked about the idea of him offering some kind of bonus for pre-orders, like autographs or a bonus disc. He said he always thought those kind of promotions were kind of cheesy, but if that’s what the fans want, he could do that. So he has decided to personally sign the first 200 pre-orders of One from http://www.radiantrecords.com. Better get ordering!

We talked a bit about the prog music market, and Neal stated that he has experienced a definite drop in sales from Transatlantic and Spock’s Beard releases after going solo, but he is still able to support himself ok for now. (But you all should keep buying stuff from Radiant Records!)  He reiterated to me that he has no plans to do anything else with Transatlantic, although he still stays in touch with Roine Stolt and, of course, Mike Portnoy.

Neal stated that his European audience is very important, and a significant portion of his worldwide sales come from there. He said when the Beard was starting out,  they thought that the Japanese market was going to be big, but it never panned out. As far as his solo tours go,  he mentioned that having Mike Portnoy playing drums was crucial to the success of the Testimony tour, that a lot of people show up just to watch him drum. He then told a funny story about how they did a Transatlantic show somewhere in Europe and only 500 people showed up. Mike Portnoy said, "Geez, I just did a drum clinic here and 1500 people came to that!" That seemed to imply that the other guys in the band were more of a detriment popularity-wise, which made them laugh and wonder if they needed to even show up next time..

We talked a bit about the songwriting process, and inspiration. He talked about how a song on One was inspired by a lady he knew from church that was so overwhelmed by a spirit of fear that she was afraid to leave her house. He explained how Randy George helped him with the lyrics to that song, and how happy he was with how it turned out.

Neal discussed how great it was to work with Christian musicians, especially Randy, and that it was nice to collaborate with people on the same page as him, especially lyrically. He also enjoys working with and being a light to musicians that may not be on the same spiritual wavelength as him. 

Neal stated that for him the most important thing is to surrender to God, and be led by the Holy Spirit with regard to his music career and future. He quoted the scripture in Romans 8 which says, "Those that are LED by the Spirit of God are the sons of God."

 I talked with Neal  a little bit about the CPR project that features his song I am Willing. Neal thought it was a great way to promote the Christian prog genre (despite being a niche within a niche). 

I asked him about new music that was grabbing him. He said that a friend had recently given him some David Sancious (a fusion keyboard player) and that he was grooving on that. He stated that he liked to listen to Hillsongs worship with his family, and that he liked Chris Rice a lot. I asked him whether he had ever heard Iona, and he said that he had heard of them but never heard them. I encouraged him to check them out.

Neal mentioned that he is currently reading two books, only one of which I remember, The Wigglesworth Standard by Madden.

I then asked Neal my famous closing question about which Bible character he most related to. Neal stated that it was Peter, because of his humanity and revelation of grace and forgiveness, and how God still used him mightily despite his earlier failures. "Upon this rock I will build my church!"

I asked Neal if he had anything to say in closing, and he said there was a saying he was really fond of: "Praise God with all your might. Praise God with all your life."

 Well, there you have it. . Perhaps I will get another opportunity for a follow up interview after One comes out. Next time I'll try to record the whole thing.

For more on Neal Morse, go to http://www.nealmorse.com

Dave Bainbridge

Dave Bainbridge, the muse behind Iona's magic, shares his thoughts on music, Celtic Christianity, Iona's future, and his new solo album, Veil of Gossamer

March 22, 2004

Interview by Dave Taylor

Virtuosity: I know Iona hasn¹t necessarily been a huge commercial success, yet you¹ve managed to keep going for what, nearly 15 years now or so. Is the band still able to support itself outside of a major record deal, and what motivates you as artists to keep creating such great, uncompromised music?

Dave: For a number of years we'd had the dream of setting up our own label after continued frustration with the record companies we'd been involve with. Our first record deal paid us a pittance in artist's royalties and it took almost 10 years and the costly involvement of lawyers and auditors before our first three albums broke even and we recovered years of unpaid USA royalties. We also felt that our previous USA label didn't really know what to do with us in terms of marketing as we were so different to their other acts. After the people who'd originally signed us to the company left, interest in us within the company waned dramatically and our albums began to be deleted from their catalogue pretty soon after release. At the beginning of 2000 we received a letter from them saying that they'd become part of the Time-Warner group and that this was an exciting development for the company that would be of great benefit to their artists. Five months later we heard via our UK label that they'd dropped us in order to concentrate on younger teenage crossover pop acts! At this point we realised that the time was right to take charge of our own destiny and with the emergence of the internet and cheaper recording technology it seemed like this was now at last a feasible possibility.

The establishing of our own Open Sky label seemed like the next logical step - probably the only one available to us at the time! For years my wife Debbie and I had handled the administration and finance side of the band, and Debbie had also worked for an independent label a while back, so we were already familiar with what setting up the label would entail. We decided that the best way forward for us would be a sort of half way house, and we now have a relationship with UK distribution company Voiceprint, who pay for all our manufacturing and then we buy back from them as and when we need stock. This takes a bit of the financial burden away from us and means we don't need a warehouse to store boxes of CDs! We also have a great relationship with our Japanese distributors The Music Plant, who always give us advances on forthcoming albums - which can be put towards the album's production costs. We also offer our fans the opportunity to be more directly involved by pre-ordering albums - so that we can put this money towards the production costs as well. Although not selling a huge amount, our first release - the 4 CD box set 'The River Flows' actually broke even within 6 months of release!

All the band members have busy musical and family lives outside the band - Troy, Frank and Phil are involved with many other musical projects and sessions, and Joanne's husband runs a successful construction company, so Iona has never had to be the main source of income for the others. This has been good in that we haven't had the pressure to sell records at any cost and we can just come to Iona because we love the music and the vision. However it also means that there are sometimes frustrations when schedules clash, but this is something we have learned to accept. There have been financially tough times for Debbie and I, especially over the past two year as the band has been unable to tour due to the birth of Joanne's two children and our commitment to a home program with our autistic son Luca, but so far - thanks to the grace of God - we haven't gone under. I'm still passionate about making music that has artistic integrity and has something to say.

Back in 1992, we recorded our second album 'The Book of Kells', a musical interpretation of an amazing 8th century illuminated manuscript of the 4 Gospels. It contains some incredibly intricate and beautiful pictures and designs and the colours still look stunning over 1200 years after it was made! It is kept in the library of Trinity College, Dublin and is on display there. Historians recount that the artists and scribes laboured on it for probably 30 years! Imagine that - spending the whole of one's working life on a single piece of art with no commercial motivation whatsoever, but instead with the aims of pleasing God and the satisfaction of creating an object of beauty!

That really spoke to me of pure motives and the 'short term' attitude that permeates society today - the quick fix, fast food, channel hopping, the pop star who's here one day and gone the next - companies looking for the next big thing instead of investing long term in their artists. With labels now owned by large global multi nationals, corporate profit has unfortunately become very important. This isn't a healthy atmosphere in which good art can be allowed to thrive and I've noticed over the past few years that there has definitely been a wane in the amount of really different, innovative and creative artists at the festivals we've appeared at in Europe. They may still be there, but they just don't get the opportunities to be heard that they used to because the larger companies send the artists they want to promote over for free as a promotional exercise - an offer that the promoters, often working on the margins of loss and profit, cannot afford to turn down.

This makes me more determined to try to continue doing what I do for the long term, whether or not it is a commercial success, and try to create music that will transcend the categories and  barriers that exist everywhere in society, and instead try to point towards something bigger than ourselves.

Virtuosity:       Is running an independent label more work than you anticipated?

Dave:  It is hard work and there just aren't enough hours in the day to do everything! Fortunately we have a couple of great people helping us out - Paul  our webmaster, who also designs our newsletter, posters, leaflets, e-cards etc and helps with marketing, and Angela, our merchandise lady. We'd love to be able to afford to pay for a label manager sometime soon though!

Virtuosity:       What sort of personal balance do you find or struggle with between ‘artistry’ and ’ministry’, and what are your personal goals as an artist and as a Christian with regards to your music?


Dave: Music for me is much more than entertainment or merely a vehicle to impose a western Christian world view. I love this quote I read a while back in a guitar magazine in an interview with the great guitarist Pat Metheny:

”There is something else included in music that is very difficult to define. It reminds us of where we were before and where we are going after. It is a mysterious vapour that somehow slips in the cracks between this plane of existance and some other one. The people who are good musicians have the ability to conjure up more of that vapour than others. Everyone recognizes it when it¹s there. It is something universal that goes beyond language and beyond race, country or nationality. We recognise it as something we all have in common.”  -  Pat Metheny

In that quote, Pat very perceptively conveys what I too feel is something of the essence of music and its ability to lift the spirit of man and unite people in a way that other art forms cannot do. So often the modern western church sees music as just another means to evangelise. For me this view is to miss the point of and even to cheapen what I believe is the power and purity of this incredible gift that we on this planet have been given. Great music has the ability to unite people and yet to speak directly to the soul and emotions of the individual. It has the ability to break down the barriers that we put up (subconsciously or not) between ourselves and others, and to bring us into an awareness of and deep longing for the eternal, timeless presence and wonder of our creator.

When you have this view and hope for music, it is impossible to accept an attitude that anything will do, or that it's ok to copy (and therefore water down) the current chart success in order to reach people. Instead it engenders an attitude to strive for the very best one can possibly achieve, for honesty and purity in one's art, free from the cynical and destructive alternate agendas of money making, empire building, fame and propaganda (however worthy the cause). With Iona we have always sought to be able to touch people with the music regardless of their beliefs.   

Virtuosity:       How did a gifted musician steeped in the sometimes drug-addled progressive music scene, come to have a life changing encounter with Jesus Christ?

Dave:  I became a Christian when I was 14 after an outreach at the school I attended by some university students, which included a film about Jesus, followed up by some coffee bar meetings at the Pentecostal church about 100 metres from our house! It was an amazing time, with about 100 kids from the school making decisions to follow Christ in that week. Not being from a 'churchy' background it was the first time in my life I had been powerfully confronted by the impact of Christ's life on the world - and his sacrificial love for us.

God's timing was perfect, as I'd already joined my first band a few months earlier and had become part of the local music scene in my town, which, I discovered, was well connected to the local drug scene. My new found faith certainly helped me to resist the temptations that were there and after a year or so I left what was a very promising band, and turned down some other offers to concentrate on my music studies. That was very hard, but it turned out to be the right decision in the long term.

So by the time I was playing music full time after I left music school when I was 21, I'd had time for my faith to become deeper - I'd become part of a very vibrant church in Leeds - so I was more prepared for the temptations of life as a musician and my response to them.

Virtuosity:       You are nearly completed with the final mixes of a new solo album! Tell us about Veil of Gossamer, what themes both musical and lyrical you are exploring, and how it will be different from an Iona project?

Dave:  Although this is my first 'solo' project, it feels very much like an extension to what I've done with Iona - a continuation of a body of work rather than something separate and divisive. Many of the sonic textures developed with the band over the years have formed the basis of the sounds and atmospheres created on this album. That's not to say it's just a rehash of ideas - I'm always looking for new settings in which to express my ideas - but I'm very clear on what emotions and spirit I want to convey.  

Philosophically, the album explores the thin veil between this life and the next and the interconnections between the earthly and heavenly realms. What I'm exploring in the album is not so much the fragility of this life, rather, it is exploring the closeness, indeed the entwining of the heavenly realm with the earthly. The Celtic peoples of our islands who embraced the Christian faith from the 4th or 5th century onwards sought to see God's fingerprint in all of his creation. Just like the fantastic Celtic knot work patterns that are so characteristic of their artwork, they saw God entwined in all aspects of their lives and of the earth they saw around them.

An amazing book called the Carmina Gadelica records many ancient Celtic prayers (collected together by Scotsman Alexander Carmichael on his many travels throughout the highlands and islands of Scotland in the 19th century). Many of these prayers concern the most mundane tasks - from dressing in the morning to milking the cows and setting the fire, through to prayers of protection whilst sleeping or out fishing. What comes through is a tremendous sense that these people had a very real and intimate relationship with their creator - God wasn't compartmentalised, but was invited into every part of their lives.

The lyrical content of the album is drawn from the Carmina Gadelica (using the original Scottish Gaelic translation!), as well as some of the writings of David Adam - who is very much a 'contemporary' Celtic Christian author and poet. He has a wonderful way of communicating the possibilities that exist in a relationship with God that is not restricted by our own, often limited and clouded 21st century vision. I love the following quote;
 

‘To experience that the whole world belongs to God and that it is the Father’s house, opens up a whole world of discovery. We discover that we are part of something far greater than we ever imagined: we may even begin to comprehend what St Paul meant when he said, ‘to those who love God all things work for the good.’ All things work together. In God there is no division; in God there is an underlying unity. This is a unity that our world of broken relationships and the fractured universe need to rediscover. We can even discover this unity by looking at ourselves. God has used all of time, all of the world, to create us as individuals. We are linked by fine threads to everything else in the world. The relationship with creation, which we broke in our wandering, is restored when we come home to the Father.

If we have lost a love for creation, we cannot say we love its Creator. If we do not show respect for what the Father has in His house, we should not be surprised that we are not at home in His Presence, or in His world. Learn that God touches you through all of creation, that He offers Himself to you through His world. He is truly incarnate in His world.’
David Adam - The Eye of the Eagle (p92 & 93)

What really saddens me about society is that so many people seem to have lost this respect for the sanctity of life and for the world. People and the natural world are treated as resources to be plundered for material and / or political or personal gain. People, the world - these are our gifts to be treasured, for in them we see the personality of the one who created them. Lose that connection and we lose sight of the closeness to us of the eternal. Lose that connection and we unleash the possibilities of disregarding the ecological threat that is set to engulf our planet, and of suicide bombers with eyes set only on the world to come.

Sometimes I feel as though God must be longing to burst into our lives, to say "Don't worry - I'm here, just hang on in there!" it is that sense of the nearness of God that I feel David Adam conveys so well. It is also there in many of the psalms and of course in the life of Jesus.

’Happy is the man who fails to stifle his vision... What you saw gliding past, like a world, behind the song and behind the colour and behind the eye’s glance does not exist just here or there but is a Presence existing equally everywhere: a presence which, though it now seems vague or to your feeble sight, will grow in clarity and depth. In this presence all diversities and impurities yearn to be melted away.’
David Adam - The Eye of the Eagle  (p.6-8)

One piece on the album 'Star-filled Skies' was inspired by a story, based on the 7th century account, that David Adam so beautifully conveys in his book on the life of St Cuthbert 'Fire of the North'. As a 16 year old shepherd tending a fire on the hills in Northumbria one dark night, Cuthbert saw a strange sight in the sky far off towards Bamburgh and Lindisfarne. As the flames and sparks of the fire rose into the night, Cuthbert noticed something that looked like lights descending and ascending from the heavens. It couldn't have been the 'Northern Lights' for it was coming from the wrong direction. He even wondered whether these were angels coming down to accompany a particularly beloved soul to heaven. The next day he learned of the death of St Aidan - the much loved founding father of the monastery on Lindisfarne - at exactly that time.

Although an account like this seems fantastical to our 21st century sense of logic, it perhaps also suggests that somewhere in the intervening 1400 years, what with society's pursuit of happiness and fulfillment through material things we have lost something of our perception of the spiritual and the mysterious. The following account (key to the inspiration on several tracks on Iona's 'Open Sky' album) of an incident in the life of St Columba, who founded the mission base on Iona in the 6th Century further illustrates this:

‘When Columba was staying on the island of Hinba the Holy Spirit was poured upon him in matchless abundance for a period of three days and nights. He remained alone inside a bolted house throughout this time, neither eating nor drinking. Yet rays of light of immeasurable brilliance could be seen flooding out by night through the chinks of the doors and the keyholes. Columba was heard to sing spiritual songs that had never been heard before.’

So that's the thinking behind the 'concept' if you like. Musically, I've been able to stretch out a bit more than on an Iona project - more guitar playing (both electric and acoustic solos) and piano. A bit more instrumental, but there are some great singers on there that I've used to create some quite unusual layered textures (Joanne and Troy from Iona, Mae McKenna, Rachel Jones from Karnataka, Chris Hale from Aradhna). There are a lot of contrasts on the album ranging from acoustic passages through to full on epic bits! There's also a melodic idea that crops up throughout the album in various forms which, along with the recurring vocal textures, gives the whole thing a sense of continuity.

Virtuosity:       I was wondering if you have ever read much of the 19th Century Scotsman George MacDonald? A lot of his philosophy seems quite similar to what you’ve quoted of David Adam.  He’s been a huge influence on me.

Dave:  I was aware of George MacDonald (we used a quote of his on Songs of Ascent) but if you can recommend any of his books I'd love to check them out. I know he has greatly influenced David Adam, who occasionally quotes him.

Virtuosity:       All of his books are great, but he has written like 60 or so, so it helps to narrow it down. I would recommend some of the anthologies to get started with , including the one his quotes put together by C.S. Lewis. His children's books, fantasies, and fiction books are all good, and his sermons are inspiring if you can wade through them.  Some favorites of mine are Lilith, a fantasy about the afterlife, the Golden Key (a short children's story), Wee Sir Gibbie, about a Christ-like mute orphan in the Scottish highlands, Robert Falconer (a novel about a Scottish musician struggling out from under a strict Calvanistic grandmother's religiosity),  The Princess and the Goblin (children's book), and his Unspoken Sermon's series.

While listening to Open Sky, I was reminded of a quote of MacDonald's about Creation:

"How should we imagine what we may of God, without the firmament over our heads, a visible sphere, yet a formless infinitude! What idea could we have of God without the sky? The truth of the sky is what it makes us feel of the God that sent it out to our eyes." (Unspoken Sermons, Vol. 3)

MacDonald also wrote:

"Nature is brimful of symbolic and analogical parallels to the goings and comings, the growth and the changes of the highest nature in man. It could not be otherwise. For not only did they issue from the same thought, but the one is made for the other. Nature as an outer garment for man, or a living house, rather, for man to lie in. So likewise must all the works of him who did the works of the Father bear the same mark of the original of all." and "No thought, human or divine, can be conveyed from man to man save through the symbolism of creation. The heavens and the earth are around us that it may be possible for us to speak of the unseen by the seen; for the outermost husk of creation has correspondence with the deepest things of the Creator."

I totally agree with what you said about the importance of the interconnectedness between the Creator and the creation. It is refreshing to hear a Christian speak up on those issues.  I’m not sure about the UK, but here in the US it is perplexing to me that Christians have often been in the forefront of those with the least respect for the created world, in effect believing that we were put here to tame and subdue and exploit the earth rather than be a good steward of its resources. I imagine some just figure it's all going to burn up anyway when Jesus comes back, so they might as well reap as much of the planet as they can with no thought to future generations. That the wholesale deforestation, exploitation, and pollution of the planet has been wrongly justified in the name of "manifest destiny", when it is actually in the name of GREED, is very bothersome to me. I believe that everything God made is holy in the sense that it was formed through Him (all things were made, not by Him, but through Him), and that we have an obligation to treat it all, both people and the natural world, with the utmost respect. However, many Christians seem to be afraid that showing respect toward creation reeks of animism or paganism or new age philosophy, when the reality is the word says that all Creation reflects and points us toward our Maker. God may care more about us than the sparrow, but he still cares for the sparrow.
 

So back to your solo album. Who are some of the other contributing musicians on Veil of Gossamer?

Dave: Other guests on the album are: Troy Donockley from Iona, who also plays Uilleann Pipes, Low and Tin Whistles, Frank van Essen from Iona on drums, percussion and solo violin, William Scofield, from the acclaimed Emperor String Quartet on cello, Pete Fairclough (great improvising jazz percussionist), on some amazing looking handmade gongs, cymbals and chimes, Nick Beggs (who's played with Iona, Steve Howe, Steve Hackett, John Paul Jones etc etc) on bass, Tim Harries (who's played with Iona, Bill Bruford, Steeleye Span, Steve Howe, Eddi Reader, the LSO etc etc) also on bass and Peter Whitfield on violins and viola.

I think I played about 15 instruments altogether - with (in addition to piano, various guitars and keys), bouzouki, mandolin, autoharp, small harp, balafon and various small percussion bits and pieces.

Virtuosity:       Can you give my readers a brief overview of some of the other projects you have finished recently, such as Songs for Luca, The River Flows, and Eye of the Eagle, and perhaps some information on how they can purchase them in the U.S.?

Dave:    Last year my wife Debbie and I put together a compilation album titled  'SONGS FOR LUCA' to help raise funds to continue a very successful (but expensive!) treatment program called the 'Son-rise' program (developed by the Autism Treatment Centre USA) for our 6 year old son Luca, who is autistic. We asked a number of our fellow artists to contribute a track each to the album. Such was the response so that we were easily able to make the album a double album release! Artists who generously contributed include Rick Wakeman, Maire Brennan (Clannad singer), The Flower Kings (great Swedish band), various Iona members past and present (including a specially written track from Nick Beggs), Mae McKenna, Eden's Bridge, Jeff Johnson, Karnataka etc. The album turned out really well and has a great flow to it.

All the profits from the album have gone directly to Luca's program and so far we have raised about $13,000! As well as funding the ongoing expenses of the program, including regular phone consultations to USA and home visits from Son-Rise staff, we have recently put down a deposit on their 'Intensive' course - so we'll be coming over to the US with Luca next February to do that. We still need to raise further funds as the program will be ongoing for at least the next two years.

Our first release on Open Sky Records was the 4 CD box set 'The River Flows - Anthology Volume 1' in 2002.  The formation of the label was a good point to assess what we'd done as a band up to that point and to contemplate what the future might hold, so the idea of a box set as our first independent release, in which the story of the band's early years could be related, grew, especially as we'd recently acquired the rights back for our first 3 albums (Iona / The Book Of Kells / Beyond These Shores). These had been out of print for a while (longer in the USA) and we were keen to make them available again.

This also gave me the opportunity to re-work some of the material on the first album - which I'd always felt could have sounded much better (the 'Iona' album was recorded on a very small budget). So 8 of the tracks on the box set version of this album are re-worked and remixed versions - but using the original multi tracks as the base which I worked from. All three albums have been re-mastered which has made a tremendous improvement to the sound - particularly 'Beyond These Shores'. We were also able to experiment a bit with some stereo widening techniques on 'The Book of Kells' to enhance the cinematic effect of that music.

The fourth CD  in the box set titled 'Dunes' features new and previously unreleased material, including some music from a BBC TV nature documentary that we recorded, which has been expanded upon and made into a 22 minute long 'suite' and some 'live' in the studio' tracks.

The Eye Of The Eagle - was a collaboration between myself and Iona co-founder David Fitzgerald, back in 1998. The music was designed specifically to enhance readings included in the book of the same name by its author David Adam, who also narrated the readings on the recording. The book is basically a series of meditations on the well known hymn 'Be Thou my vision', the words of which date back to somewhere between the 8th and 10th centuries and were written in Ireland. This has been a very significant book for me and also inspired much of the music on Iona's 'Journey into the Morn' album.

We also produced a version without the narration for those people who'd prefer to listen just to the music. I'm really pleased with this album, which by its very raison d'etre relies more on atmospheres and subtlety rather than virtuosity to enhance the readings. Maire Brennan from Clannad is on the album along with an excellent Scottish singer called Shona MacDonald, and also the St Edmundsbury Cathedral boys choir and cathedral organ! We performed it live in at Norwich Cathedral at the end of 1998 as part of the Norwich International Festival. The concert was filmed and shown on TV in the UK and subsequently released on video (now deleted). However, there may soon be a DVD of the programme available.     


For your readers info, all our albums can be bought directly from our web site (http://www.iona.uk.com) and selected ones can be ordered at record shops in the US (distributed by Navarre) or via the Navarre web site (http://www.navarre.com), or by mail order in the US by phoning this toll free phone hotline 1 800 567 9185.

Virtuosity:       I recently ordered your Eye of the Eagle CD from an outfit called www.GoldUSA.com , which carries a lot of Christian import music from the UK (including your box set), so I look forward to reviewing that soon.  I imagine you make more money if people order directly from your Iona site though? If that¹s true, I will certainly do my part to direct people there instead of other outlets.

Dave:  Hope you like Eye of the Eagle. Yes, we make far more profit if orders come directly from our website - we also have the instrumental version of Eye of the Eagle available. In order to compete more with the likes of Amazon, there will be some price reductions on CD’s from our secure store from around May.

Virtuosity:       I usually ask people what equipment they are currently using for recording, but I noticed on your site that you¹ve been using a Roland vs2480.  I¹m curious about how you like it, what its limitations are, and what other recording software or hardware you are currently using?

Dave:  I've been really pleased with the 2480 which I've been using for about 2 1/2 years and which I know pretty well now. Something like a Pro-Tools system might have been more universally compatible, but I couldn't afford that at the time (or now come to that!). I like having the physical controls at hand rather than using a mouse all the time, and I bought it before all the current control surfaces for pro-tools / logic and the like started becoming affordable. It has its limitations - only 24 tracks playable at one time, although there are 384 virtual tracks, and I've had problems syncing to the outside world - even with all the Roland sync boxes, but as an all in one box I'd certainly recommend it. Some of the guitar modeling effects are great - in fact much of the electric guitar stuff on the album was done just di'ed straight into the VS! I've done some pretty reasonable mixes on it too, although for the new solo album, I transferred most of the tracks to a 48 track digital machine in an outside studio with a great Sony digital desk and more outboard FX so I could have more control without resorting to too many sub mixes.  

The important thing when using something like the VS2480 is to have a good 'front end' and I have some great Amek-Neve pre amps and a couple of nice compressors (LA Audio and TLA valve) and I've been using a great mic (AMS Soundfield stereo mic) - which I use to record most things.

Believe it or not my main sequencing software is Cubase on a 15 year old Atari Mega 2! I use a Steinberg Midex+ box for synchronisation and it's worked fine for years and I know it inside out. It would be great to have something like Logic audio with all the plug ins, and I sometimes hanker after a Gigasampler - especially for the piano and orchestral samples, but on the other hand, music is all about ideas not just technology. I know most of my gear pretty well - much of it is quite old now - but for me that’s a plus point because I can work with it quickly without too many technical headaches to destroy the creative process.

Virtuosity:       It’s been a while since your last Iona release. What are your current plans, and how soon does the band plan on getting back in the studio?

Dave:  Well, Joanne our singer has had the joy of having two children over the past 2 years or so, so we've had to adapt our plans somewhat to fit around that. Jo has not wanted to tour, except for the occasional gig, and has found it hard to concentrate on or find time for writing. We have a load of quite promising ideas already recorded, but will need to spend time this year working with Jo to get a few vocal songs together. We are now making plans to have some more writing sessions soon. The logistics are quite tricky - with band members living as far afield as Holland, Ireland and Northern and Southern England!

Troy and I live quite near each other, so we tend to get together a lot for writing - in fact we've been doing a few gigs as a duo whilst the band has been dormant and are to release a duo album later in the year - sort of half live recordings and half in the studio - quite an uncomplicated affair for once! In fact we've been playing two pieces live that will probably be on the next Iona album. A new band studio recording is now certainly becoming a focus for us and I'm really looking forward to getting stuck into it soon.

Virtuosity:       Any chance that you guys might release a live DVD at some point for those of us that may never get an opportunity to get to a gig?

Dave:  Well, we had started planning a concert in London that was to be filmed for a DVD when Jo became pregnant for the second time - so that had to be shelved - but it's something that we want to do in the near future. The live Iona experience has always been something special - which is why we've released two live albums.

Virtuosity:       Speaking of that, what will it take to get Iona back to the U.S. for some shows (ideally on the West coast?)

 Dave:  It would be great to get back to the US to play, but for the foreseeable future, family commitments just don't allow this. We'll be playing our first concerts for two years towards the end of the year in the UK and Germany though.

Virtuosity:       I usually ask songwriters a bit about their muse, and how they collaborate with the other musicians and singers within their band. Encircling is one of my favorite Iona songs. Listening to it with headphones on, I am constantly blown away by the powerful ancient lyrics and  the amazingly intricate mix that builds and weaves an aural Celtic knot around my brain and literally encircles me as I listen. I know its a few years old, but tell us a bit about the writing, recording and mixing of that piece.

Dave:  The Celtic Christians had a practice called the 'caim', in which they drew around them a circle. Usually, they used their right index finger. Pointing outwards they turned, following the direction of the sun, until with their hand they had enscribed a full circle around themselves. This was a symbol of the encircling love of God. So the piece 'Encircling' is basically about asking for God's protection through the trials, temptations and tribulations of life. It also uses part of the well known prayer 'St Patrick's Breastplate' attributed to St Patrick from the 4th century, which itself echoes the writings of St Paul in the book of Ephesians in the Bible when he speaks of putting on the whole armour of God.

This was a piece that I wrote and demoed (on Cubase on the Atari and a 4 track cassette protastudio!) for the band in more or less its completed form. I wanted to continue the Iona tradition of such pieces as 'Matthew - the Man' and 'Bird of Heaven', ie, of having an extended composition on the album that passed through lots of different textures and emotions and which interwove Jo's voice throughout the instrumental passages. The addition of the rest of the band of course really brought the piece to life. It was recorded, as was most of that album, in the studio of a friend which was, at the time, set up on a farm in rural Derbyshire in England - an idyllic setting. Then for Maire Brennan's wonderful vocal and Celtic harp contributions, Jo and I journeyed to Dublin in Southern Ireland and set up for a few days in a small studio there. The end section of the piece when Maire and Jo sing together is spine-tingling and I agree it's still one of our best recorded moments.

The album was mixed over about 12 days by Calum Malcolm (with whom I've just mixed my new solo album) in Scotland at the studio of the former Marillion singer Fish.

Virtuosity:       The Book of Kells never gets old for me. Maybe I am a sucker for concept albums, but it takes me a on a wonderful journey of high praise, and I can literally get lost in it. Consequently, we have about worn it out. Toward the end of the album there is a liquid section during Eternity that builds to a place that incorporates corporate ‘high praise’ from Kensington Temple, with the congregation singing in the Spirit, as it were, as the heavenly host. My pastor, George Miller, whom we turned on to you guys years ago, used that section of song as an example during a teaching once on the Hebrew word Nahar, which means to “radiantly flow together like liquid light bubbling in praise”. It is from Jeremiah 31:12, which says: ‘Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all.’ I¹ve been a part of that sort of  ‘heavenly expression’ in corporate spontaneous worship before, and I just want to say I really enjoy the creativity involved in placing it there within the context of that song.  I cannot help but be moved to worship when I hear that.

 
Dave:  That's fantastic - a good idea for a new piece there! Yes, it was very special that section on the album. David Fitzgerald was attending that church in London at the time and they graciously allowed the two of us to play the piece 'Eternity' in one of their evening services. It was quite a basic version - but David explained that at the end of the piece we just wanted the congregation to express their love and worship for God which we intended to record for the end of the album. The spontaneous outburst of 'singing in tongues' was overwhelming - about 1500 people from something like 160 different nationalities (it's the most multi cultural church in London). An amazing experience and it really captured what we'd wanted - a sort of tearing down of the veil separating us from Heaven!

Virtuosity:       I know there is often a powerful, tangible anointing of the Holy Spirit in your recordings, where I have literally felt the presence of God enter a room while listening to Iona. Although your music generally isn’t technically ‘worship’ per se, how important is worship to what you do as a musician and as a band, and is maintaining that anointing through the recording process something you strive for?

Dave:  I think the problem is that people like to define things in life in categories and boxes. It's all to do with control - we don't like to step out of our comfort zones and really experience life. This is an unfortunate symptom of our affluent western lifestyle. Our centrally heated houses and air conditioned cars shut out the reality of life outside. Reality TV allows us to experience life second hand through someone else’s trials and tribulations. So 'worship' music has become a category alongside 'easy listening' and 'country'. It has taken on its own musical style, adopted certain chord progressions, certain acceptable instrumentation and other conventions. In most churches, the 'worship time' is a set period within the service which needs to end so that there's time to read the church notices and allow the pastor plenty of time for his sermon.

That doesn't seem to be how it was in Old Testament times to judge by the description in 2 Chronicles 5 v11 - 14 (in the Bible) - which altogether describes a much more awesome and unnerving experience. Our song 'Bird of Heaven' - with words adapted from Sidney Carter's poem tries to sum this up;

BIRD OF HEAVEN

Catch the Bird of Heaven
Lock Him in a cage of gold
Look again tomorrow
And He will be gone

Lock Him in religion
Gold and frankincense and myrrh
Carry to His prison
But He will be gone

All the things that man has made
Cannot hold Him anymore
Still the bird is flying as before

Temple made of marble
Beak and feather made of gold
Bell and book and candle
Cannot hold Him anymore
Still the bird is flying
As before

I just don't believe that the being who's creativity extended to bringing about the whole universe limits worship of Him in such a way. As Christians, our whole lives should be worshipful and pleasing to God. Whenever I write music, that is my hope for it. God can and does use all kinds of music to bring people into his presence - often through attributes that the music has that reflect the personality of God, such as its beauty, its vibrancy, its passion or even its sorrow. Its this subject again of breaking down the cultural and stylistic barriers that hinder us from seeing God in 'the other', from understanding the 'bigger picture'.


Virtuosity:       I really enjoyed the creative chemistry with David Fitzgerald on the first two Iona albums, not to take anything away from the other fine musicians you¹ve worked with since then. I know you recently collaborated with him on Eye of the Eagle. Do you guys have any plans on working together again in the near future?

 
Dave:  David has just finished a new solo album which he asked me to guest on, but in the end, sadly, schedules just didn't work out. We have talked occasionally about collaborating on another project and have a few ideas on the back burner, but there's only so much that you can fit into the time you have! So it's possible at some point. David's a very gifted sax and woodwind player.


Virtuosity:       How did Iona ever hook up with Robert Fripp, and are there other legendary musicians out there you would like to work with someday?

 
Dave:  At the time that Nick Beggs was in Iona, he had also spent some time writing with the singer Toyah Wilcox - Robert's wife. So Nick introduced him to Iona's music - the first two albums. Robert told Nick he enjoyed listening to them - particularly when he was in the bath(!) and that he'd love to guest on our next recording. So when we came to recording 'Beyond these Shores', we contacted him and arranged a day recording with him in a studio near where he lives. I've always liked Robert's left field approach to the guitar - and in particular the atmospheres that he can evoke using all his electronics, or 'Frippertronics' as he calls it. I thought his soundscapes would fit in really well with the evocations of the sea that the album demanded, and sure enough he came up with some glorious sounds. Basically I told him what keys various pieces were in and then he just played on his own, layering together these great textures - of which we recorded about 2 hour's worth! I then later weaved them in and out of various tracks - in fact there was so much great stuff that we used (with his permission) more of it on two tracks on the following album 'Journey into the Morn'.

There are loads of musicians I admire and love to listen to, but I don't really have burning aspirations necessarily to work with them. There are some great musicians I'm already working with or have worked with, and count that a tremendous privilege. There's more to creating great music with other musicians than just creating a sort to dream band scenario. Empathy, a shared vision, humility, connectedness all play a huge part.   

Virtuosity:       Speaking of other musicians, can you fill us in on some of the music that is currently inspiring you these days?

 
Dave:  Well, I'd love to have more time to listen to music, but looking after Luca and our  3 1/2 year old daughter Evie means that time is limited! However traveling up to Scotland 3 times recently for my album mix gave me some time to catch up. I listen to a lot of 20th century British classical music - composers like EJ Moeran, Gerald Finzi and John Taverner are particular favourites along with the Estonian composer Arvo Part. I've been also listening to a reissue of 'Vision of the Emerald Beyond' by the Mahavishnu Orchestra - fantastically exciting ensemble playing - they were a big early influence on me. I love Keith Jarrett's writing and playing - and indeed did a dissertation on his piano style when I was at music college! Another album I've listened to recently is UK guitarist / singer Bryn Haworth's Songs and Hymns - he's a great slide player and the album has a lovely, simple warmth to it. I also like some Irish traditional musicians, such as Donal Lunny and Altan and the Bulgarian folk singers 'Le Mystere Des Voix Bulgares' - I could go on!!

Virtuosity:       Are you aware of other progressive rock artists from the U.K. that are Christians and might be of interest to my readers?

Dave:    I'm not actually aware of any other 'progressive rock' artists in the UK who are also Christians, except Rick Wakeman and Peter Gee (bass player with Pendragon).

Virtuosity:       As far as Christian prog artists from the UK, I have tracked down a few, including the two that you mentioned. There is also the late Geoff Mann (Twelfth Night, Casino), Marc Catley (Paley¹s Watch, the Flaming Methodists), Tr3nity (promising new band), Aslan (extremely rare UK folk prog band from the 70¹s that I havn¹t tracked down music from yet), Narnia (another rare folk-prog band from the early 70¹s that¹s tough to find), and I¹ve heard people call Adrian Snell prog.

Dave:  I saw Geoff Mann play what must have been one of his last gigs at a festival that I was playing at in the UK. I'd never heard of him prior to that and unfortunately didn't get to meet him afterwards. I did get to meet Marc Catley, who was playing with him at the time and was in touch with him for a while. I remember him sending me a Paley's Watch CD. I met the bass player from Narnia ages ago at an Adrian Snell concert, just before I started working with Adrian (whom I met when I was still at Music School) - but I've never heard any of their music. I'll look out for Tr3nity though. You might be interested to know that Kerry Minnear from Gentle Giant is a Christian and a friend of mine. They were one of my favourite bands in the late 70's. He's still involved in music, though mainly teaching - I've been trying to pursuade him to do something a bit more musically adventurous again!

Virtuosity:       I have read of the great inspiration you¹ve taken from David Adams. Are there other authors with books you can¹t put down lately that you would like to share about?

 
Dave:  As with the music answer above, but even more so - reading time seems to have evaporated somewhat recently, but I love Ray Simpson's books (he also writes on the relevance of the Celtic Church to today's society) and also Michael Mitton's book 'Restoring the Woven Chord'. In a slightly different vain, Gary Larson's Far Side books always make me laugh (they’re usually on rotation in the bathroom) and I still like Douglas Adams - I read his book 'Last Chance to See' last year - it's very funny, but also very poignant and relevant.

Another very interesting and very funny book I'm reading at the moment is 'The Curious Incident of The Dog in the Night-time' by Mark Haddon - a sort of detective story involving a 15 year old with Asperger's Syndrome (an autistic spectrum disorder). There are a lot of similarities in his behaviour patterns with my son Luca, (who has high functioning autism / Asperger's) - so I can relate well to it.


Virtuosity:       Time for the typical somewhat silly closing questions. Imagine you are being exiled to the isle of Patmos, where they will provide food and a bible. You are also allowed to bring the works of one musical artist and one author, as well as a case of your favorite beverage. What would they be?

 
Dave:  Well Debbie and I visited Patmos about 8 years ago - what a place. We stood in the cave where St John was reputed to have his revelation and visited the hill top monastery, where they had a 4th century St Mark's gospel on display. So at least I'd be a little bit familiar with my surroundings!

Musical artist? Probably Keith Jarrett - because his recordings cover so many styles so I don't think I'd get bored with them.

Author? Definitely David Adam - I'd have plenty of time to really put into practice his spiritual exercises!

Beverage? A nice cup of tea of course - well I am English!

Virtuosity:       And finally, which character in the Bible do you most relate to, and why?

 Dave:  Has to be King David in the Psalms - I'm sure everyone who reads the Psalms can relate to something in there.

For more information on Dave Bainbridge, IONA , and OPEN SKY RECORDS, please visit http://www.iona.uk.com

Carl Groves

Carl Groves, Salem Hill's songwriting guitarist and keyboardist speaks out in the key of Be.

November 12, 2003  Interview by Dave Taylor

Virtuosity: Hi Carl. I appreciate you taking the time to chat a bit about the new Salem Hill album, Be.

Carl: It's no sacrifice talking about "Be." The band and I are fiercely proud of this one. From the reviews we're getting, seems folks are grooving on it too.

Virtuosity:  You guys have long been one of my favorite groups, and Catatonia is still one of my top three desert island discs. I just want to say that I really appreciate your songwriting, both your sometimes brutal honesty and your knack for exposing the subtle nuances of human nature in a way that makes me really think. After nearly giving up the ghost following Not Everybody's Gold, Salem Hill is back with a vengeance with Be. After immersing myself in it the last several weeks, I find it very purposeful, very driven, and more focused than your last album. Be has surpassed all my expectations, and it grows on me more with each listen.  What has kept the band going, and did you guys feel you had something to prove with Be?

Carl: As a whole, I still think "Catatonia" is my best lyrical work. Glad you like it too. As for "giving up the ghost," 'tis true--we had unofficially called it quits after NEG. It was a miserable album to record. I thought it was the most uneven record we've made, and it was apparent that the five of us weren't on the same page when it came to SH. We lost our manager and we were all fairly fed up with each other. I suggested we rent a venue and give our fans a free show/party as a parting 'thankyou' gesture. Michael Ayers didn't participate and, much to our surprise, the four of us had a blast. Around that time (6/02) we also got together to record a new studio track we were obligated to do for Cyclops Records' release of our live album, "Puppet Show." The song was "Waiting for Wonderfulness," and again, we recorded it quickly and joyfully. Magically, it seemed that the nastiness was gone and we talked about going on.

As for something to prove with "Be"...well, yes and no. Yes from my standpoint, as we had a true keyboardist on NEG and I'm a guitarist that dabbles in keys. No from the band's standpoint as we were all fairly committed to doing what we do--no proggy wanking unless the SONG called for it. Like "Catatonia" and "The Robbery of Murder", "Be" is a collection of songs that tell a story. Therefore, the song becomes more important than the player or singer performing it. And I believe that should be true whether you're dealing with a conceptual piece, prog or pop or whatever. I think we lost sight of that with NEG, wanting to bring in pipe organs and boys' choir and crap like that just so we could flex our prog muscle. And how pathetic. It's like using a a scratchy Mellotron for strings when a clean lush sample is what the song demands. 9 times out of 10 a prog band will go with the Mellotron just to say "we've used Mellotron on our record!" Give the boys a card as they're part of the club now, ya know? Ridiculous.

Virtuosity:  Your previous album in places seemed like you were trying too hard to be progressive (perhaps it was Ayers influence).  In many ways, Be reminds me a bit of Salem Hill II, with shorter, more concise, heavier songs, although its much more polished and creative.  Was there a sense of re-discovering your identity as a band with this album?

Carl: Again, yes and no. I think that it's easy to assign all blame on Ayers since he's no longer around to defend himself. But, in our own ways, we were all guilty of superfluous doo-doo on NEG. I won't go into specifics but if you listen, you'll hear more guitar tracks, more doubled vocals, more percussive prattle than was necessary to serve the song. We failed at serving the song on NEG. That's not to say that there aren't some moments I'm really proud of. It's just that to me it's a confusing record to listen to. And seeing that I was party to creating it, I can't imagine how confusing it must be to folks just listening for enjoyment. Eek.

Virtuosity: I understand Be is a concept album inspired by the cover photo. It certainly makes you think. Where did you find that photo, and why did it affect you so powerfully?

Carl: My brother-in-law, Kevin Hancock is a professional photographer. We were vacationing with them in September of 2001. One morning he came running out of the condo on the beach with his camera in hand. I asked what all the hurry was about and he stated he had just loaded his camera with infrared film and was looking for something to shoot. He shot the chair before moving on to shooting our kids and other interesting(?) objects on the beach. I didn't see the developed shot until Christmas of 2001. Its affect on me was immediate. I asked him if I could use it for my next solo record. He gave it to me as a Christmas present! I don't know why it struck me the way it did. I guess there is such loneliness in the shot. The infrared nature of the photo makes the chair somewhat ghostly. I just found myself wondering about what would bring about this sad, lonely, empty chair on the beach. It took a couple months to write the skeleton story for "Be." After our decision to stay together in mid 2002, I presented the guys with the story, certain that it'd be a hard sell. Much to my shock and joyful surprise, they were all very interested in it. 

Virtuosity:  So who's the guy playing video games on the insert photo? Its pretty comical.

Carl: Ha! That's Bill Neagle, my brother. I told him about the ideas I had for the photo shots of the insert. I wanted shots to reflect the lyrics of "Symposium", "The Great Stereopticon," "The Perfect Light," and the closer, "Regard Me." The shot for "Stereopticon" is exactly as I'd envisioned. It was supposed to be someone literally immersed in various media--games, books, TVs, etc. It is funny, isn't it? 

Virtuosity:  The new record sounds fabulous. Tell us a bit about the recording hardware and software you used for Be, and how you mastered it.

Carl: Thanks. I'm glad you hear the improvement. This is the first album we've ever done completely in house, i.e., at England Recording. Usually we track at England and then master elsewhere. But it's gotten very expensive, and we were outright shocked at the mastering job of NEG, so we decided to do it all in house. We track 24 bit onto hard drive using mostly Roland hardware. We input on a Mackie 24/8 console that I love more than I should. All of our effects are proprietary 24 bit Roland. We mix automated to a stereo mix through our TDS miracle box. This was recommended to us by David Ragsdale a few years ago and TDS was kind enough to give it to us. We are obsessive when it comes to using it. It is a truly amazing piece of gear. For mastering, we again used Roland's software at 24 bit and then burned to 16 bit for replication. We used very little compression and EQ with "Be." We rarely recorded guitars through anything but raw amplifiers. Pat's bass was recorded with a split signal-his Trace Elliott cabinet miked with an AKG D19 and a direct line. Vocals were recorded dry with either an Octava M319 or AT 4033. Amazingly, these mics are both mid-level gear, i.e., very modest when it comes to price. We miked guitar amps with Shure 57s. We miked virtually everything else that you hear on the album with a matched pair of AKG 451s.

Virtuosity: Crafting a great song is an art (which you are quite talented at). Tell me how a song like Beings came about, from start to finish?

Carl:  Well, thank you! "Beings" started out lyrically from a paraphrase of James 4:14. The music was all acoustic guitar and is really the simplest thing on "Be." We initially recorded it live, in fact. I'm not sure what performances remain from that session, but it's a simple verse/chorus scheme. However, what I wanted with "Beings" was a departure from most verse/chorus form where the chorus answers questions posed by the verse. In "Beings", the verses are imparting rather sound words. It's during that chorus that all the vulnerability shows. It's funny you ask about crafting "Beings" as it was the most easy of all the tunes on "Be." Now "Symposium" was another story!

Virtuosity: OK, then tell us a bit how the song Symposium came to be.

Carl: Symposium is probably the most complex song on "Be" just by virtue of its different sections and many solos. It was designed to be the opener quite early on, and I wanted to accomplish several things: First off, I wanted to set the tone for the album and launch the story. Second, I wanted it to rock. Third, I wanted it to showcase the band by flexing some musical muscle. And last, I wanted it to rock...get the picture? It started with the main riff that the bass begins the tune with. I'm really proud of Symposium due to the fact that I think it's got some great melody lines over a rather heavy and dissonant floor. The choruses are just straight ahead rock while the bridge changes keys completely with a string of nasty chords over a pedal A. I was going for a haunting sound to set up the solo section. The solo section is really the only place on "Be" that the music was written just to do a bit of wanking. It's funny because Pat starts the song, Kevin has the first solo (Zappaesque mallet), I get the keyboard solo, and Mike gets the guitar solo. So everyone gets to shine right off the bat. I really think that we accomplished quite a feat with pulling it all off within about 5 minutes. 

Virtuosity: I really like your songwriting, but it was nice to hear some stuff from Mr. Dearing and Mr. Henry on Be. Is it more difficult for you to co-write songs than to just crank them out yourself?

Carl: I love Mike and Pat's stuff. I do find that I have to be less rigid when it comes to taking their ideas and expanding them. In other words, it's natural for me to take their raw ideas and do what I'd do to my own raw ideas. ...and I found out that neither of them care from that kind of treatment all the time. For "Be" most of my collaboration on Pat's tunes involved me plugging lyrics into his music. As he writes very "free-form," it's always a challenge. I'm used to it as we've done it before. Mike's a different story. His stuff comes in very fleshed out and I discovered that he changes my lyrics to suit his music. Once I've stopped crying, I'm usually okay with that. Seriously, it's more difficult certainly, but worth it. I lobbied very hard for Mike and Pat's song input during NEG. It just didn't work out for that one. For "Be", I didn't have to lobby at all as we were all completely dedicated to the story and album from the get-go.

Virtuosity:  While its obvious that all the songs on the Be are connected in some way to the concept, the story itself isn't that easy to follow. Several of the songs hint that the protagonist is some kind of terrorist or serial killer that eventually takes his own life. Perhaps you could explain that and summarize it a bit for us obtuse listeners.

Carl: Well, you aren't obtuse. I've read your review and you're probably closer to the story than you know. I'm hesitant to give the story of "Be" as I made that mistake with "Catatonia" and "The Robbery of Murder" only to find out that I'd destroyed some listeners' interpretations in the process. So, not to be coy, I don't want to give any concrete storyline for "Be." I will say that the protagonist is NOT a mad scientist, is NOT a terrorist, and, using a strict definition of the phrase, is certainly not a serial killer.

Virtuosity:  This world is often a dark place, and Salem Hill has explored more than a few dark themes on your albums. Is it because unpleasant things often make a more interesting story, or is there more to it than that?

Carl: I'm asked that a lot. By our former manager. By my wife. By Kevin. And it's not an easy question to answer. Yes, I do feel that darker themes are more interesting, and better lend themselves to the drama that is music. However, I also think that there's enough happy fluff out there. Folks that do happy fluff do it well and are obviously prolific with it. That's cool. I groove to their stuff on nice sunny days going 70 with the top down. But I've never felt "drawn" to explore those things with my music. Currently, I'm about to embark on my next solo record. It'll be 100% unabashedly and unapologetically Christian. But, from the tunes I've written so far, it doesn't appear that it'll be yet another offering of "thank you Lord for saving me" kinda records. Not that I'm not thankful. And not that I'm not happy. I am. But I can tell you that. When it comes to art, I'll ask you to come with me down a dark corridor. I think we'll learn about ourselves walking that corridor. And most of the time, there's an escape at the other end.

Virtuosity:  Despite the unpleasant demise at the end, I find a few sparks of hope in the Be story. What kind of encouragement do you hope your listeners take from the album?

Carl: I think the story is tragic in that there is an unpleasant ending--a giving up, if you will. But you're right: He sees hope for the world. He cynically sings early in the album that Love Won't Save the World. Yet later, he comes to see that perhaps he was wrong. He states that "so maybe love can save the world..." even though he feels it's too late for him. I hope that listeners will see that we can be so much more than the selfish, entertainment-addicted, space-taking little blobs we normally find ourselves to be.

Virtuosity:  Do you guys have any more live shows planned in support of Be?

Carl: Well, the running joke is that we've already completed our world tour in support of "Be," playing our one annual show at Jim Robinson's Prog House series last month. Seriously, we've abandoned the habit of playing just to play. We love playing. We really do. But we won't play silly gigs just to get pictures and enjoy each other's company. If there's a purpose (supporting "Be" is a great reason, granted) we'll do it. But the venue and the situation have to be right. So, to give you a long answer to a short question, no live shows are planned as of yet. Perhaps this Spring.

Virtuosity: I understand that all the current members of Salem Hill are Christians, yet no one can really accuse you guys of making Christian music, although those underlying elements certainly surface in places. How do you maintain the balance between faith and art in your craft of songwriting?

Carl: We all are Christians, indeed. And, being who we are, we will write what we write. So some underlying Christian elements do appear in "Be", more than "The Robbery of Murder" but much, much less than in "Catatonia." We aren't, as band, interested in "ministering." If it happens, great. But we're interested in expressing ourselves. If it's overtly Christian, like in the lyrics of "Catatonia", it's not an intentional, calculated "direction" we're going in. It's just what we wrote at that given time. Same for TROM and for "Be." I can't see us ever writing music that glorifies darkness, but then again, as I stated previously, I don't ever see us writing a so-called "praise" type song either. But remember that I'm one of four. And two of 'em are bigger than me.

Virtuosity: You mentioned that you were working on a solo album that will be more Christian-oriented than your previous output. Tell me more about that, and when might it see the light of day?

Carl: Right. Salem Hill actually makes an appearance...and it's a blatant "praise" type song...so I guess that shoots my previous statement out of the water, doesn't it? I've demoed about half a dozen songs for the record, and have ideas for half a dozen others. As far as coming along, it's in the late planning stages. I imagine we'll begin recording before year's end. As for release date...as you well know, I've never made one with the band or without, so I'll just say sometime in 2004.

Virtuosity: Do you have any thoughts on the Christian progressive rock movement, and do you find anything encouraging about the positive response Neal Morse has gotten from his Testimony album and tour?

Carl: I've got plenty of thoughts, most of them skeptical. I am a member of a really cool eGroup called Christian Prog Advancement. We're planning on releasing a sampler of Christian Prog just to let folks know it's out there. The skepticism comes in my feeling that we're compartmentalizing an already marginalized genre in Christian Prog. I mean, regular, "secular" prog is pretty much ignored already. Trying to turn folks onto a subgenre of a subgenre seems a bit ambitious for me. But who knows? Maybe I'm just a nattering naybob of negativity.

Virtuosity:  So have you been listening to any new music or reading any books that have been particularly inspiring to you lately?

Carl: I'd love to say yes, but recently the only music I've lived with for any amount of time is "Be" up until a few weeks ago. Since then, I've been in recharge mode. Whilst in recharge mode I don't do much reading or listening to anything but Mahler.

Virtuosity:  Tell me about any popular non-progressive music that you enjoy listening to.

Carl: I like Aimee Mann. I find Chris Cornell's lyrics and most of his music to be really, really well-done. I love to hear Toni Braxton sing. I don't think she picks great songs, tho'. I thought Tori Amos' last album--not the copy album--was excellent. 

Virtuosity:  Time for my standard closing questions.  You are exiled to a desert island for a year and you can only take works by one author, one rock band, and twelve cases of your favorite beverage.  What would they be?

Carl: CS Lewis, The Beatles, and Guinness.

Virtuosity: What person or character out of the bible do you most relate to personally?

Carl: Peter. Did and spoke before he thought. Prone to major lapses in faith, but never too proud to take Jesus' hand and let the Master bail him out.

Virtuosity:  Thanks for taking the time to do this interview, Carl.  Is there anything else you want to say to Virtuosity readers?

Carl: Say? Not really. Ask, yes. I'd like to ask folks to let me hear their interpretations after listening to "Be." Blessings and peace.

Click here to go to Virtuosity's review of Be.

Kerry Livgren

Spiritual Progressive Rock Pioneer Kerry Livgren Has a Candid Chat About Gear, Kansas, Proto-KAW, and the Cantata.

October 21, 2002   Interviewed by Dave Taylor

Virtuosity:       You've been writing songs for a long time, and lately you've been as prolific as ever, with a recent Kansas album, two solo albums out in the last year and another due out in a few months, plus you released Proto-KAW last month. What motivates you and keeps you going year after year as an artist?

Kerry:  I'm not sure I really have a choice. Music has been my primary avocation since I was 14 years old. It comes out of me whether I wish it to or not. I have periods of activity that ebb and flow - like the tide. My motivation, if I really stop to ponder it, is always to use the gift I have to glorify God, to stimulate listeners to think, and in so doing to provide for my family by making music. If nothing else, it's just fun...

Virtuosity:       How has the internet and the advent of inexpensive digital recording gear benefited you as a solo artist?

Kerry:  Greatly. The gear of course does amazing things now, and very inexpensively compared to what it used to cost. The Internet - a thing which did not exist only a few years ago - is now essential. For those of us who do not have major radio exposure (which is all but a select few), it is our connection to the rest of the world.

Virtuosity:       Can you give my readers a brief overview of the recording equipment and software you are favoring these days?

Kerry:  I have tried most all of them, (both PC and Mac), own several, and Digital Performer still comes out on top. Ease of use, reliability, features, etc., it blows them all away. I also use a Mackie MDR 24/96 for "spillover" tracks. I have a Soundcraft (Holy) Ghost console, but most of my tracking is done through an Oram Microphone Workstation, and a Seasound Solo Interface. I use primarily Blue (brand) microphones.

Virtuosity:       Your latest solo release is the Best of Kerry Livgren, available from your own Numavox Records (http://www.numavox.com). What process did you use to deduce what actual songs were your best? Are these personal favorites, fan favorites, or a combination? (I bet it was interesting listening to all those old tapes again-- kind of like reading an old diary...)

Kerry:  There was nothing approaching a consistent consensus regarding what was my "best", so I arbitrarily chose the songs. Ultimately these choices are going to leave someone unsatisfied, (including me), but I think the collection holds up pretty well as a good example of my work over the years. There are a couple of things I would have liked to add, but the one CD simply wouldn't hold them all. Yes, it was a bit like re-living much of my past...

Virtuosity:       Tell me about your new song from your Best Of CD, White Light. Was that written before or after September 11? It seems very timely and poignant.

Kerry:  The song was actually in progress when 9-11 happened. I think I re-phrased some of the lyrics after reflecting on what had happened.

Virtuosity:       I understand you released the new song, When You Walk, as a single. I'm sort of out of touch with the CCM industry (I live in Alaska). What sort of industry response has it generated?

Kerry:  Well, I'm a bit out of touch with that too, but I've been getting some moderate airplay reports. As usual, my work doesn't neatly fit any
formats..although that song comes close.

Virtuosity:       Are you cynical at all about the CCM industry and Christian radio?

Kerry:  I'm not sure cynical would be the healthiest word..but I'm vigilant and, I suppose, suspicious. Most of the CCM Industry seems to me to be just that - an industry. That in itself is not necessarily wrong, but much of it looks to me to be mostly image-driven and somewhat shallow. I find the music for the most part to be uninteresting, generic, and very predictable. The dilemma is that I agree with the message, even if it's poorly conveyed.

Virtuosity:       I know that God has used your songs mightily over the years. Vinyl Confessions (especially the song Borderline) and Seeds of Change were both very instrumental in my conversion to Christianity in 1983. I was an unchurched stoner teetering on the edge, and God really opened my eyes. I have met dozens of other Christians with the same testimony, of how your Kansas songs opened their eyes to a whole new invisible Kingdom. I imagine you must get thousands of such letters. How does that make you feel, knowing that God has used you to harvest a hard-to-reach mission field of (typically) spaced out progressive rock heads, and do testimonies of that sort still amaze you?

Kerry:  Absolutely. It has been my joy, almost daily, to hear these stories of how the Lord has used my work for His purposes. It makes whatever ever I go through quite worthwhile.

Virtuosity:       One person I met recently cited hearing the song The Wall as the turning point in his spiritual awakening. In your excellent autobiography, Seeds of Change, you mention how Dust in Wind led people to Christ. Did you have any idea of the kind of lasting impact your poetic and pregnant pre-Christian lyrics would have on people when you were writing them?

Kerry:  I was aware at the time of the awesome responsibility I had because listeners were so profoundly affected by our music and lyrics, but I really was not aware (yet) of where it all was leading - to Jesus Christ.

Virtuosity:       Francis Schaeffer writes in his booklet Art & the Bible:

"Christian art is by no means always religious art, that is, art which deals with religious themes. Consider God the Creator. Is God's creation totally involved with religious subjects? What about the universe? the birds? the trees? the mountains? What about the bird's song? and the sound of the wind in the trees? When God created out of nothing by His spoken word, he did not just create "religious" objects. And in the Bible, as we have seen, God commanded the artist, working within God's own creation, to fashion statues of oxen and
lions and carvings of almond blossoms for the tabernacle and the temple. Christian art is the expression of the whole life of the whole person who is a Christian. What a Christian portrays in his art is the totality of life. Art is not to be solely a vehicle for some sort of self-conscious evangelism."

What do you think about this statement?

Kerry:  Who can argue with Francis Schaeffer! I might differ a bit in perspective - I believe that the totality of life IS a "religious subject".

Virtuosity:       Do you consider yourself more of an artist or an evangelist, and how does a Christian artist reconcile the two?

Kerry:  I don't think they're mutually exclusive, but I would say that as an artist, the work itself reflects my beliefs and is useful in evangelism. Evangelism itself is something that occurs more in the personal arena, and is a specific gift. Actually, my spiritual gift is teaching. Musical ability is a natural gift, and not on the list of spiritual gifts.

Virtuosity:       Progressive rock typically has some of the most esoteric and mystical lyrics out there. Some of yours certainly can be classified that way. Many of your early Kansas songs were written from a spiritual seekers perspective, and although you never spelled out the True Answer until Vinyl Confessions, many of your questions allowed the Holy Spirit to provide the answers in people's hearts. Do you think the spiritual impact of parables, symbolism, and abstraction in lyrics can be as effective on the unsaved as the unambiguous, in your face Christianity that is typical in most CCM?

Kerry:  You said it rather well, and yes, I think it can be as effective. Did Jesus himself speak in ambiguous words? Absolutely! Not always, but He used parables to communicate truth.

Virtuosity:       I am a songwriter, and I know many of my readers are as well. Many of us hail you as one of our chief influences, especially as a lyricist. I for one am curious how you harness the muse. Describe to me the process of how a song like Distant Vision was birthed?

Kerry:  That's ultimately impossible to answer. Inspiration just comes, or it does not. A song can be written purely because of accumulated skill or craft, but that is not the same as inspiration.Usually I begin with a core idea or concept, and the music and lyrics follow. This was true of Distant Vision, (based on the diary of Christopher Columbus). I read a great deal, which can be a source for many of those ideas.

Virtuosity:       While we are talking song births, Miracles Out of Nowhere is probably my favorite song of all time. Do you remember the inspiration behind that song, and how it come about?

Kerry:  It may not be a satisfying answer, but it came to me just while playing the piano in my living room. I recall nothing more specific.

Virtuosity:       Through the mid-80's through the 90's, much of your music with vocals (ie, AD, When Things Get Electric) strayed away a bit from the progressive rock foundations you laid with Kansas, although it's still very creative. Lately, with Collector's Sedition, Somewhere to Elsewhere, and the unearthing of Kansas II, it seems like many of your compositions are coming full circle musically into much more adventurous territory again. Can you explain this?

Kerry:  Well, I don't consciously think about whether I'm being "progressive" or not. I put a much higher value on being "creative". Any writer’s music changes and evolves over time, (or at least it should). At times, I'll review music I did years ago and think - wow, I was really on to something, I should explore that idea further. Sometimes one ends up coming full circle.

Virtuosity:       I know Kansas fans worldwide were overjoyed with the release of Somewhere to Elsewhere. In my book it ranks right up there as one of the best Kansas albums ever. How gratifying was it to be recording with Kansas again?

Kerry:  It was great fun. Recording Kansas albums can be a harrowing experience, but Somewhere to Elsewhere was one of the more relaxed and enjoyable albums we did together.

Virtuosity:       As a Christian, I find many of the songs on Somewhere to Elsewhere extremely encouraging and uplifting. It doesn't take much of a genius to see your Christian world-view come through in the lyrics. I guess people, me included, were somewhat surprised by which songs the band chose and were excited to hear Steve and Robby singing their hearts out on them, after the legends from the 80's about the strife over your lyrics. Have the years matured and mellowed the band into a more unified philosophy, or did the band feel your
songs just too great to pass up regardless of their lyrical content?

Kerry:  I guess it must have been both of those elements. I left the song choices up to the band, and I was a bit surprised at some that they chose - and didn't choose. There was definitely a more relaxed attitude concerning lyrics - it never really came up.

Virtuosity:       I know we are all hoping and praying that you'll contribute to the next Kansas album. Rumors abound, but can you tell us if songs are being written and plans being made for a follow-up to Somewhere to Elsewhere?

Kerry:  We've talked a bit about it in general terms but there are no specifics as yet.

Virtuosity:       I recently read a splendid novel called Byzantium by Christian fantasy author Stephen Lawhead. Was your tune from STE inspired at all by that book?

Kerry:  No, I've read some of his earlier works but I was unaware of that one.

Virtuosity:       I have a Christian rock radio show on a secular public radio station that I do every week, and I played The Coming Dawn on it continually for like eight months (well, I mixed it up with Distant Vision once in a while) because I was convinced that if the world heard it, it would be just as big as Dust in the Wind. Were you hoping that song would break out, and does it bother you still when songs you think should go big are ignored by radio?

Kerry:  I did have some hopes for that one, but it seems radio playlists and formats are becoming more restrictive and "corporate" all the time, so it was a faint hope at best. Not many DJ's have the freedom any more to play what they would like, and of course not everything I write is particularly "radio-friendly", except to the most adventurous stations.

Virtuosity:       Your spiritual direction has changed a bit since you wrote your two biggest hits, Dust in the Wind and Carry On Wayward Son. If you could choose just one song you've written as your hugest hit, on every radio in America, your lasting spiritual message to the world, which would it be and why?

Kerry:  That's a hard choice. It would force me to choose between which I think would merit being the biggest "hit" and which would best communicate a spiritual message. In reality, the choice has been made already with Dust - a message straight from Ecclesiastes, and unquestionably a big hit. My song "Ground Zero" gives me goosebumps, but it will never be a hit in that sense.

Virtuosity:       Proto-KAW, an album of early pre-Kansas material, was recently released on Cuneiform Records. Can you relay the story behind those tapes, how they surfaced after all these years, and why you decided to release them now?

Kerry:  Those tapes give a good historical perspective on the background both of Kansas and my composing. The tapes have been in my possession all these years, but Cuneiform convinced me they should be released. I had some misgivings about it but I'm glad we did.

Virtuosity:       Did you add any overdubs to the recording when your re-mastered it?

Kerry:  I did several edits, and one small overdub. Mostly it was a "restoration" and mastering process.

Virtuosity:       Can you tell me who the song Heavenly Man is about? It almost seems to be a prayer to Jesus.

Kerry:  I am amazed you would know about that one - it was one of the last pieces the "Proto-KAW" band did, and never got recorded, except at one gig. Obviously that has circulated around(?). It was about an other-worldy visitation.

Virtuosity:       You probably know far better than I, but it seems Proto-KAW has had a very enthusiastic response. I think the music is phenomenal, but I happen to love jazz and strange progressive meanderings (although my wife gave me a hard time while I was listening to the tune Hegomonium - I guess chicks just don't dig spacey songs that talk about maggots and hacking people up…LOL). Although rock radio and the whole music industry in general has been pretty stale lately, I am encouraged that creative bands like Radiohead, Tool, Dave
Matthews, and Coldplay are as popular as they are. Did it surprise you that the latest issue of Rolling Stone gave Proto-KAW a glowing three star review and mentioned you favorably?

Kerry:  I have been very surprised at the reaction to the CD. It seems that the "rawness" of the music has an appeal to it. It's hard for me to be objective - but I think that band was unique and perhaps a bit ahead of it's time. We certainly didn't get anywhere with it in
the State of Kansas in 1972. It was a kick seeing it reviewed in Rolling Stone. I'm proud of the music, but I have reservations about the philosophies and world view that I embraced back then.

Virtuosity:       So please tell us a bit about the your new upcoming musical epic, The Cantata. What can we expect from this album musically, and how close is it to being released?

Kerry:  It's still a ways off. I can't speculate on a date. I have been working on it off and on for 20 years. It's very orchestrated and different than anything I've done before. In concept it reminds me a bit of Les Miserables.

Virtuosity:       I've heard there is an impressive list of guest singers on the album. I've read the names Phil Keaggy, Matthew Ward, and David Pack from the Numavox site. Any other surprises you want to divulge to whet our appetites?

Kerry:  Phil has already performed on it. I have had some conversations with the others about it. In the end, the lineup will probably go through some changes.

Virtuosity:       I understand you are very involved in the Topeka Bible Church and you are even guest speaking at a conference at Willow Creek soon. What types of ministry do you do there, is conference speaking new to you, and do you ever lead worship at your home church?

Kerry:  I am very involved in the Church, but not at all in the way most people would assume. My gift is in teaching the Scripture, especially New Testament. I teach an adult class on Sunday mornings. I rarely do conferences or seminars, as I shy away from the travel nowadays.

Virtuosity:       When You Walk almost sounds like a worship song. Do you write congregational-style worship songs, and might we ever expect an album of such songs, now that modern worship music is all the rage?  (I for one would buy it in a heart beat, even an unplugged acoustic album with just your guitar, Jake (Livgren), and maybe a violin...hint, hint).

Kerry:  I have not focused on doing contemporary "worship music", for a church service. I guess I feel there is no shortage of it, and would rather devote myself in the area I know best. I'm not sure many churches would implement the broader view I hold of what constitutes "worship music".

Virtuosity:       What great and interesting books are currently resting on your nightstand these days?

Kerry:  Currently reading "Walking the Bible" by Bruce Feiler and a book on the Middle East by Daniel Pipes called "The Hidden Hand".

Virtuosity:       Did you ever break out and read your old copy of George MacDonald's Lilith? (I always thought the profound allegorical and revelatory images in the old Scotsman's book would make a great progressive concept album).

Kerry:  It probably would. I'm getting into Tolkien again with all the current exposure he's getting.

Virtuosity:       Is there any new music that you have been especially grooving on lately?

Kerry:  My tastes are extremely broad, but I work with music so much that I have little time to listen.

Virtuosity:       I always ask this question, although it seems sort of silly. What bible character do you most relate to and why?

Kerry:  Probably Jonah - though I would rather like to relate to the apostle John.

Virtuosity:       Thanks for your time, Kerry, and thanks for the spiritual deposit your songs have made in so many lives, including mine. It's really an honor to get an opportunity to talk to you. Do you have any final thoughts or words for the spiritual progressive rock fans or artists out there?

Kerry:  Keep seeking out truth and creativity.

Steve Babb

Steve Babb Gives Us the Inside Scoop Behind Glass Hammer's Epic New  Album, Lex Rex

September 18, 2002   Interviewed by Dave Taylor

Virtuosity:    First off, I want to thank you for taking the time to talk to us a little bit about your new studio album, Lex Rex. I've been a Glass Hammer fan ever since I copped a used copy of Journey of the Dunedan off a guy on the net that had an extra. It was even autographed by you guys (with a note that said "Tolkien forgive us!"). Since then I've purchased all your other cd's as they've become available. Being a fan of both Tolkien, Lewis, and old school progressive rock, I must say, your music is consistently right up my alley. Besides that, Glass Hammer just gets better and better with every album. How do you guys find the time and energy to keep putting out quality music?


Steve:     Well, first of all - thanks!  We work really hard on our music, and hearing positive feedback from listeners keeps us going. Ah, time and energy!  I own the studio where we record, and Fred is the chief engineer.  Thus, we are here many hours every day producing albums or commercials.  Some days are blocked off entirely for Glass Hammer, while on other days we squeeze in an hour or two if time permits.  But even though every day at Sound Resources is filled with music, it is typically someone else's! 

Here's how a day goes:

Yesterday, I began at 7:30 a.m. answering emails and writing letters.  By 9:00 I was making custom sound effects for a huge haunted house attraction in Atlanta.  Around 12:00 I find out that the new Glass Hammer ad will be running in Progression Magazine in three weeks, so I have to get the Lex Rex master off to the duplication plant.  No time for lunch!  At 1:00 I record a new-age guru for an hour and a half.  He did a presentation on how to "reach a bliss state".  Creepy, but it paid the electric bill for the month!  Fred shows up at 3:00 and we discuss changes to the GH master.  He begins recording gospel music for another client, while I check the master for errors, and run a few office related errands.  We both manage to eat around 6:00, and the gospel singer shows up at 7:00 and stays until 10:00.  Whew!  We're done!  It all begins again today - but with a clarinet player and a CCM artist later on. 

Since we are currently caught up on GH, none of this presents a problem right now.  But I think next week we really intend to get cranked up on a new album for 2003.  It will take months to write and record - you can be sure of that!
 

Virtuosity:    I've been listening to Lex Rex for a few weeks now, and its obvious that this album is just huge, in scope, recording quality, content, musicianship, and spiritual punch. It really is epic. You guys obviously took a lot of time and loving care to make certain this album is your crowning achievement thus far (which it most definitely is). The recording quality is amazing, and the tones you and Fred get are classic! Tell me approximately how long it took to record, and gear that you guys used.

Steve:     Total studio hours have never been calculated, but I'd guess it would amount to around 400.  We started writing and recording a few basic tracks in May of 2001.  We finished mixing around the first week of August in 2002!  So, it was spread out over months.  I took a break from it for around three months after my wife and I had our first child in January.  (Its a boy!  And Jon-Michael loves listening to GH.)  Musically, we were through when the baby arrived.  But the lyrics were really tough to finish.  You don't get much sleep with a new baby in the house, and it took around 3 months of adjusting.  But even when I was rested enough to take up the pen again, it took hours and hours to record the vocals.  And you just can't sing in eight hour stretches.  So, the last bit of recording was stretched out over most of the summer. The equipment is 'fairly' basic.  Three ADATs total 24 tracks of digital tape.  We bounced tracks to make room for around 40 tracks however, and then moved everything over to the computer for mixing and to master the final mix.  We use Sonic Foundry software to handle all of that.  We've got a variety of mics and outboard effects; a room full of guitars, basses and amps.  We've got a real Hammond and Leslie cabinet, plus a lot old analog synths we've had since we were kids.  If your readers are interested, they can check out our gear page on the Glass Hammer website.  (http://www.glasshammer.com) 
We've recently added a Roland V2480 that's not on the site.  This actually replaces just about every device in the studio from the board, the ADATs, the effects - you name it.  It also gives us the option of doing Surround Sound recordings, which we've been dying to do.

Virtuosity:    You guys do it all on your records, and you do it well. How many different instruments are you proficient at?

Steve:     We are proficient enough to 'record' ourselves on a great many instruments.  I don't think we'd wish to perform them all live though. I'm primarily a keyboardist first, then a bassist.  I could also fake a bit of mandolin and guitar if it were ever necessary - which it isn't! Fred seems to excel at whatever he picks up.  But he is primarily a keyboardist - then a guitarist and percussionist.  He also plays a little flute and recorder, but his new instrumental fascination is with the lap steel guitar.  You can hear it all over Lex Rex.  He only began playing it around a year ago, and he already rocks!

Virtuosity:    Glass Hammer is really starting to develop a unique sound, but its still hard not to make comparisons to some of the pioneer prog bands, mostly due to the keyboard sounds you use, like the classic Hammond solos. With this album, I don't really hear as many passages that remind me directly of the classic bands, other than a few very Wakeman-esque keyboard solos and Howe-like steel guitar parts. Are you guys annoyed or flattered when people compare you to bands like ELP or Yes?

Steve:     We are positively flattered!  These are two of my favorite groups, and Fred and I are fans in the traditional sense.  I don't think any reviewer has ever labeled us a 'clone band' however, and for that I am grateful.  There's a big difference between being compared to a group you are influenced by, and being labeled a knock-off.  Of course, on Chronometree we did a few 'tribute' sections that are truly supposed to sound like the older groups.  But that had more to do with the storyline behind the album.  Chronometree was about a Yes fan in the late 70's who went overboard with his albums - so the sound of the album needed to be very retro, and reminiscent of Yes and ELP.  But here's the deal.  We picked up on prog in the golden days of the genre.  It was my favorite music then, and remains so today.  As a young musician, you tend to style yourself after your heroes.  Thus, I play analog synths like Camel and Oldfield while playing bass like Geddy Lee or Chris Squire.  But I have metal influences as well - and that keeps it from being clonish.  As an organist, Fred followed Emerson - but he has other influences beyond ELP, and those keep his sound fresh.  We both LOVE the old prog material, and each album is probably a subconscious attempt for us to recapture the fire and the passion of our youth, and those early, near magical experiences of discovering music as teens.  I never grew tired of listening to "Going For The One" for instance.  But Yes never made another album like it.  I have a need to hear more of it though - so I write it myself.  We never quite manage to recapture what we're after however, and so the next album begins.  We're not rock stars like those guys, and we don't 'have' to do another album - we 'need' to!  It is an endless cycle that seems to work for us.  Part of the theme behind Lex Rex deals with this.  Lex Rex is a tale about a quest for glory.  Great music is a glimpse of glory for me, and it transports me spiritually, so to speak.  It is not the true source mind you; rather a shadow of the real thing. 

Virtuosity:   Lex Rex is a concept album with a very original theme, the story of a First Century Roman soldier that is in search of glory, like you mentioned,  and he gets more than he bargained for in the end. Tell me how this idea came about, and explain to me the typical Glass Hammer songwriting collaboration process that you and Fred used on the album.

Steve:      I am a Biblical 'literalist'.  In other words, I believe it word for word.  But I have an imagination too, and I wondered about the life of the soldier whose task it was to spear Christ at the crucifixion.  I'm not sure where or when I decided to embellish his tale, and I had no idea where it was going when I began.  There is a legend about this soldier, but I found out about that when I was nearly done.  It just so happens to have nearly the same outcome as my tale - so much the better.  I didn't realize it until near the very end of the writing process, that the soldier I was writing about was an 'every man'.  He has a hole deep down inside of him that needs to be filled.  He feels that he is created for some magnificent destiny, and many characters enter into his life - each with their own idea about how he should seek to fulfill it.  But something 'majestic' is calling to him, and no matter how far he runs in the wrong direction - the voice beckons and the hole gets bigger.  He searches for glory in battle, in love, and within the lives of others - heroes and kings.  But he finds them all wanting.  His doom, and the central theme of the album is this - he searches for glory and finally finds it - but in
following Rome he must help to slay it.  It is while guarding the tomb that he comes to grip with his life and where it has led him.  And just when he thinks that all is lost, Glory itself rises from the tomb.  He is forgiven, and learns that he really was created for a grand destiny.  But it won't happen in this world or in this life.  He cannot earn it, it is freely given.  And truthfully, we all played an equal part in the tragedy of the cross.  We've all got blood on our hands, and we're all searching for Heaven.  So I think his story reflects our own lives in a number of ways. That's a long answer I know.  But believe me, I could have gone on for pages! 
As for the writing process, Fred concentrates on music while I develop the lyrics and the story.  I also write a great deal of music as well.  Here's how it worked on a few tunes:  He wrote the opening track music, while I wrote the vocal melody and the lyrics.  The next song, "One King" had pretty much the same approach.  Next up was "Further Up - Further In".  We both wrote the music for that one, and we both contributed to the vocal melodies.  Fred wrote the beginning section, I wrote a middle section that runs for around six minutes, then Fred wrote the end.  Later on you'll hear "A Cup Of Trembling" and "When We Were Young".  The music and lyrics are both mine, but Fred embellished it all quite a bit.  We try to stay out of each other's way, and we each contribute where needed.  All in all, Fred wrote around 70 % of the music and I wrote the rest, plus the lyrics.

Virtuosity:    Glass Hammer, as a very spiritual progressive rock band, has always personified the heart of Virtuosity. Perelandra and On To Evermore very successfully explored spiritual themes lyrically in subtle, allegorical ways. Even Chromonetree has some hints. With Lex Rex, the hero has a very moving encounter with the crucified Christ. No subtlety there, although you tell the story in a very compelling way. Has your approach changed, or did this story just require a bolder touch?

Steve:     Perelandra was an odd experiment really, because it was mix of very diverse influences.  Fred and I were both fairly blown away by David Lynch's Twin Peaks film, "Fire Walks With Me".  He did a tremendous job of portraying evil in that film.  But the final 'redemption' scene was something that I truly wished to capture musically.  You'd have to watch the film and get caught up in the whole Twin Peaks mythos to understand, and most folk probably hated the movie anyway.  Suffice it to say that a fair amount of Lynch's magic is accomplished by keeping the viewer guessing.  What is he trying to say?  Was that a clue?  Was that a dream, or did it really happen?  He makes art.  That's what we tried with Perelandra. Was it successful?  I've always thought the album had more to offer in the production department.  We doggedly continued the vague approach to the storytelling with On To Evermore.  What's it about?  What are they trying to tell us?  But even with all of the hinting and lyrical 'clues', it is fairly easy to know that we're talking about good vs. evil.  And I think most folk can tell whose side we're on. But with Lex Rex, I just wanted to come out of the closet so to speak.  I'm certainly not going to promote the album as a Christian album.  People would imagine it to be CCM - and it isn't CCM!  Outside of my Christian friends, and those who read this interview, no one will be told anything about the story at all except for a few basic things.  It is the tale of a Roman soldier and his quest for glory.  But I'm not really trying to be sneaky either.  I just don't want to shut the door on listeners who are prejudiced against Christians.  There is more to Glass Hammer and Lex Rex than the lyrics and the story.  Take keyboards for instance.  A lot of non-believers love to hear Fred jam on the Hammond organ.  I don't want to run them off.  If I knew an album was particularly religious in a way I didn't agree with, I might avoid it all together - and I might be missing out on some great music as a result.  I don't want that to happen with Glass Hammer. But Lex Rex does present the gospel in fairly clear language.  The soldier does find glory, and the listener is told exactly how he finds it and who it is.  And they, like the soldier, are given a choice.  Listening to this album has eternal consequences for the non-believer.  For they'll find Christ within it, and they'll either dismiss him, or look a little deeper. Now I may never go that deep again with Glass Hammer.  I don't have any plans to do so on the next album.  But if I ever feel 'led' to do so, I won't shrink from it.  I've done so much bad in my life, the least I can do is devote a portion of my creative output to the God who made me.  It is the most important message in all of creation.  Mankind is a fallen race, and Christ is the cure.  What are you going to do about Him?  People deserve to hear that message in ways that they can understand.  I'm not sure if prog is a proper evangelizing tool, but listening to music may be the only spirit life that some people ever experience.

Virtuosity:    You guys have a fairly large following in secular prog circles. Do you fear being labeled as a "Christian" band?

Steve:     Yes I do.  Sadly enough, I don't like many Christian bands - the music isn't challenging and the business is mostly corrupt.  I find most of the Christian songs I hear to be cheap knock-offs of secular pop tunes, which aren't so good either!  Call me a snob - I'll admit that I am.  I've been involved in Christian music since I was a child.  In the last few years, I've been active in several projects that also involve elements of the CCM scene in Nashville.  Its all rumor and gossip, but the word is that CCM is in a bad state.  Oh sales are up, and there are many good Christians involved within the industry, but there are some bad apples as well.  The companies are mostly owned by secular interests, and the projects and songs are conducted by formula, and a bad formula to boot.  Yet the churches ram that stuff down the throats of their youth, who mostly follow along blindly - having no idea where the music comes from, or what sort of theology is driving the process.  We owe God better than that.  Pray for those people who are directing the course of modern Christian music.  They truly need it.But very few people from Nashville are asking my opinion.  And those who do aren't happy with me once they hear it.  So let me add a little positive in with all of the negative.  There are Christians doing CCM, and even a few who run the companies.  The production is far better than it once was, and some of the songs are both beautiful and well written.  And frankly, some Christians find secular music to be offensive - which leaves no alternative.  For them, CCM is a blessing I'm sure. 
But getting back to the original question; we do want to be labeled a prog band - even though we've dabbled with other forms of music on Glass Hammer albums, and some of the lyrics are Christian.  Conversely, being labeled "Christian" in this day and age isn't going to win GH new fans in the secular world, and that is the world that needs to hear GH the most!

Virtuosity:    Do you see Glass Hammer as an artistic expression or a ministry?

Steve:     Mostly an artistic expression.  Lyrically I have a lot to say - or attempt to say, and I love telling stories.  The Middle-earth Album is full of stories, while Lex Rex is one tale from beginning to end.  A lot of that comes from reading so many books in my spare time.  But not everything I read is Christian.  Thus, I'd like to take a stab at some of Tolkien's Silmarillion tales someday, and I'd like to spin a few of my own new yarns as well.  So that really can't be ministry, even though there is a ministry aspect at some levels.  I spend a lot of time helping and advising young musicians here at the studio, and at church.  That's ministry to me - helping others. Lex Rex tells the gospel story in a fantasy setting, but the next album might be about a Tolkienesque Dwarven warrior slaying a dragon!  Fred and I just wrote a 'Christian' musical called David and Goliath.  And though it's available on the website, it wasn't done under the name Glass Hammer - even though it is the same people.  So, we have an outlet for the true Christian music, even though GH music will go that direction from time to time. 

Virtuosity:    Tell me about the success of your Middle Earth Album. Your timing on that one was impeccable, coinciding perfectly with the hysteria surrounding the Fellowship of the Rings movie. I'm assuming that was intentional.

Steve:     Because of the movie, and because of our first album "Journey of the Dunadan", Fred and I were invited to speak at a huge sci-fi convention in Atlanta.  We've played the same con from time to time as Glass Hammer, so we were well known with that crowd.  The movie was all the buzz of course, and we dropped a few hints about doing another album.  The Tolkien websites like http://www.theonering.net and http://www.Tolkienonline.com offered to help us promote it, so the decision was made to proceed at once.  Of course we hoped we might find a back door into the actual movie, but that never materialized.  We were just invited to perform at the Oscar party next year, and we might do that for the fun of it. Needless to say, Fred and I are huge fans of Tolkien and The Middle-earth Album was a blast to make.  It confused many of our prog fans, but most GH fans are very tolerant of all of our whims. It was a huge success for us, and will continue to be as long as those movies keep doing well!

Virtuosity:    Are you thinking about a follow up to coincide with each segment of the Trilogy?

Steve:     I'd love to, but it just isn't possible.  We might do another album before the third movie is released, but we'll just have to see if time permits.  Prog is our main focus right now, and getting another prog album like Lex Rex ready for 2003 is our main goal.

Virtuosity:    What single Glass Hammer song are you the most proud of?

Steve:     "When We Were Young" from Lex Rex.  It does everything that "Heaven" did on Perelandra, but a lot better.  At least I think so.  I wrote it the day that Julie (my wife) told me she was pregnant with Jon-Michael.  I was literally sitting at the keyboard when she told me.  There is joy in the music - joy about Christ and joy about the prayer he'd just answered for me.  There's a big musical climax at the end of the tune, and that is where I hit you with the gospel.  The angels all come down and sing of the defeat of death.  The stone is rolled away, and Christ is revealed.  The soldier knows the truth, and Love becomes his eternal King.  It all happens in less than three minutes.  The music is just building and building, and my hope is that the listener will feel it swell inside of his or her spirit.  Maybe the non-believer will come to associate the way this song makes them feel, with the words that are being sung.  Maybe he'll explore the matter further and find out the truth about his soul, and about God.  I'm hoping it creates a desire for Heaven, but that's all up to the King of Kings.  He calls whomever He calls!  Either way, "When We Were Young" may end up being the least favorite song on the album, but it will always mean a lot to me.

Virtuosity:    Any plans for some Glass Hammer live shows in the near future?

Steve:     Maybe the Lord of the Rings Oscar party, and one other Lord of the Rings event.  We may play the movie premier in Toronto.  Of course they'll probably ask us to dress up like elves and we'll only be doing our Dwarven drinking songs!  Not much for the proggers there!  Otherwise, unless we're asked to do one of the really big prog shows like Nearfest - we're pretty much content to hide away in the studio.  We spent many years touring, and I'm just burnt out on the whole thing.  I'm not ruling it out mind you, but I've got no plans to perform in the foreseeable future.

Virtuosity:    Tell us a little more about the Faith and Reason album, and if and when Glass Hammer fans can expect to hear it?

Steve:     You will hear it in bits and pieces, turning up here or there on compilations or videos.  Two of the songs have videos, which will be released alongside Lex Rex in a few weeks as part of a one hour GH documentary and music video collection called "This Way To Evermore".  Why was it never formally released?  It was (overall mind you) too accessible of a sound.  Too much rock and not enough prog.  The Christian lyrics were over the top as well.  It was a neo-prog Christian album, and that wasn't what we wanted for GH.  But there was a lot of great music there, and we're not ashamed of any of it.  We just don't see it as an album anymore.

Virtuosity:    What other bands have you been listening to lately?

Steve:     We produce so much music here that I rarely listen for enjoyment.  When I do, believe it or not, I still like the same old albums I grew up with.  Yes, ELP, etc. 

Virtuosity:     I know you are an avid reader. Tell me about some of your recent literary explorations.

Steve:      I read lots of historical fiction.  I love Napoleonic sea tales like The Hornblower novels, and I've been reading a lot of the newer attempts at that style by various and sundry authors.  I just read a new Sharpe novel by Bernard Cornwell - I've read all of those.  But at this particular moment I'm in the middle of a Robert Howard Conan novel, Tolkien's Silmarilion, a reread of Wangerin's Book of the Duncow, and On The Eve of Adam by J. R. Church.  I like to keep 3-4 going at once.

Virtuosity:    Time for my standard closing questions. You are exiled to a desert island for a year, and you can only take the works of one author, one rock band, and 12 cases of your favorite beverage. What would they be?

Steve:     Well I'm going to sneak in a copy of the Bible - I am always reading the Bible.  But that can't count for my book.  That being the case, I can leave Lewis at home and take Tolkien.  I'll reread the Lord of the Rings while listening to Yes and drinking coffee all day.

Virtuosity:    What person/character out of the bible do you most relate to?

Steve:      After just rewriting the David and Goliath story, I'd have to say .... Goliath.  Nope - just kidding!  David is a hero, a king, and a songwriter.  What's not to love? But he is also a very flawed man.  He falls down a lot spiritually and morally, but he gets up and keeps going.  And God dearly loved him.  If God can love such a man, He could even love me!

Brett Kull

Brett Kull of Echolyn Discusses Gear, God, and the Conception of Mei

July 30, 2002   Interviewed by Dave Taylor

Virtuosity:    Congratulations on your splendid new album, Mei, that I can only describe as sublime. You guys amaze me at the true quality of the music you put out. Every song seems lovingly crafted and cured to perfection.  Despite the arsenic flavored desert that followed the ill fated Sony banquet, echolyn has persevered and survived. I know it's not easy or lucrative being an independent band. What keeps you guys going?

Brett:    I love recording and writing music and probably will always be doing it...I have to, I'm compelled to. What got echolyn back together and keeps us active is simply the love of playing together. There is nothing like the feeling of just the 4 of us working on a tune together in my studio, jamming, playing loud, and exploring all the angles. It's a challenge to keep coming up with new ideas.

Virtuosity:     How have the recent technological advances in affordable digital recording and the advent of internet marketing benefited echolyn?

Brett:   They have benefited us wonderfully! I can't say enough good things about the internet and the quality of home recording. They are just another sign of how much the industry is changing away from the major labels making all the money!

Virtuosity:   After a few years of cold storage, echolyn was reborn in 2000, meaner and leaner, with the stark and literary Cowboy Poems Free release. When you got back together with Chris, did you guys set some new goals or parameters for the band, like 'now were going to be this or that,' or was your more stripped down sound and serious lyrical output just something that happened organically?

Brett:   Well, we actually were not going to do an echolyn album. We wanted to do something under a different name but after the songs were written they were too echolyn to not be called echolyn songs. We never give ourselves any restrictions when writing. We did conscientiously try to be a bit more groove oriented and song based with the songs. We wanted to say something with the lyrics and have the music add to that, not sidetrack from it. We used to tend to write stuff just for the sake of musical notes. That's not what good songwriting is about for me at this stage of my life.

Virtuosity:   Tell me what kind of recording gear/hardware/software you used for Mei.

Brett:   I tracked the drums on ADAT XT20's. Everthing else was recorded straight to Protools. All edits and mixing were done in Protools too. I used a bunch of different mics...AT4050's, C1000S, AM52's, AM40, D112's, SM57's , etc. These were run through Joe Meek Mic pre's and Behringer Mic pre's. Ray used a 5 string bass through a Mesa Cabinet and a direct signal. Chris played his Wurliztzer, my Rhodes and a bunch of Hammond organ (through a 147 Leslie). He also used my Wurlitzer Spinet acoustic piano and his Nord synth (for all the wierd solo's and sounds). Paul played his Pearl Master Series kit (set up as a 5 piece). I used my Stratocaster through a Fender Blues Deville tied in with a Mesa 4x12 cabinet. For the acoustic guitar stuff I played my Guild 12 string restrung to Nashville style (9 string).

Virtuosity:    Typically you and Ray share the lyric writing credits on most of your recent songs.   Mei is an epic song, and at 50 minutes long, and it has various elaborate parts and pieces yet maintains a cohesive whole.   The lyrics really tell a compelling story, and in reading them it is difficult to tell who's is who's. Describe to me your collaboration process with Ray, and how the idea and evolution of Mei came about?

Brett:   We were looking for a thread for the concept. I got "The Divine Comedy" (Dante) and turned Ray onto it to. That got us thinking. I was also into doing a road song. Ray and I  talked about different scenarios we wanted to pursue and started running with it. I had the beginning verses and Ray took the story from there. We simply kept following each others ideas and that would lead us down different roads. we didn't want it to be grand or epic. I think it's pretty personnel. Extremely personnel. Most of the stuff I sing I wrote and likewise with Ray. We did write a couple parts together that he sings though.

Virtuosity:     Your lyrics have a decidedly spiritual overtone that connect with people on many levels. With As the World,  the very first song seems to challenge the listener to break away from the norm and consider things beyond this life, leading eventually into A Short Essay (one of my all time favorite songs), which has one thinking of their eternal destiny pretty heavily, to the temptor in My Dear Wormwood that exposes the negative alternative, to the closing song Never the Same where we see the end of life that has the listener seeing hope and a future in death rather than despair.  There is a journey in much of your music that appears calculated yet without pretenesion. I for one greatly appreciate that aspect of echolyn's music, simply because I like to be challenged, both musically and intellectually. It's fairly impossible to write anything, be it novels, songs, or even newspaper articles without certain biases and philosophies spilling out, sometimes intentional, sometimes not. Are your songs, Mei included, written with the conscious intent of stirring up your listeners preconceptions, to try and make them consider things, spiritual or otherwise, that they had perhaps discounted?

Brett:   I think it comes off that way because I'm still searching for something. Some of the old stuff comes off a bit plenteous for me now. I definitely work against that. On this album it's not about telling people something or challenging them with an idea...it's more of a search on my part and Ray's.

Virtuosity:   I see Mei as a spiritual metaphor, a Pilgrim's Progress so to speak.  The lyrics seem to be about a tortured journey, an individual burned by love, tormented by despair and darkness, sideswiped by pride, until he finally crashes even as he begins to fight back.  Like a drowning man, the harder he struggled against his demons, the faster he sunk. Yet in the end, out of the place of brokenness and defeat, he finally becomes ready to receive forgiveness and love, even from that place of imperfection. He goes from the dark place where there is no forgiveness (no Lamb, no hope)); no future (no garden, no peace) to a place of realization  (spike into flesh); to brokenness and finally willingness to embrace love and forgiveness.  I know I can relate to that journey.   How much of the story was birthed out of yours or Ray's own personal experience?

Brett:   All of it.  You hit it right on the head!

Virtuosity:     The phrase "live through me" shows up in a number of echolyn songs, including Mei.  What does that mean to you?

Brett:        Ray wrote that.  I don't know what it means to him but for me, in the sense of Mei, it's refering to living through God/Jesus and or Satan.

Virtuosity:   I wont bore you with my views, but suffice to say I am not overly fond of most modern Christianity, denominations, televangelists, or the Moral Majority.  But I do consider myself a Christian and try to maintain a close relationhship with Jesus.  You don't have to answer this if you don't want to, but I am curious about your own views about and relationship with the Nazarene.

Brett:   I have an on-going want and need to learn more about Jesus because it makes me feel at peace when I do so. I'm pretty cynical when it comes to religion but I find nothing remotely disturbing when it comes to who He really was and is.

Virtuosity:    Were you raised in a church going environment? If so, how much were you influenced musically by the church?

Brett:   I wasn't really raised in a church atmosphere. We went when I was younger but it turned me off more than on. I wasn't really influenced by church music. My Parents are both involved on a very real level now in their church. I find that inspiring. Most church music just bores me. I saw a bumper sticker on a car that said "How come the Devil gets all the cool songs?"

Virtuosity:    I read a rumor that after the Still - Always Almost album came out, you attempted to market it to a CCM (Contemporary Christian Music) label. Any truth to that, and, if so, what  prompted that move and what was your experience? Did you have any bites?

Brett:   No, that is not true. I hate marketing myself to any specific genre.

Virtuosity:    What are some of your current literary inspirations? Steinbeck, Kerouac, Lewis, Rynd, and even Tolkien   have been associated with echolyn songs. Are these all favorites of yours?

Brett:   I read a lot. I think I get most of my inspiration from books. Those ones you mentioned have all been used in various echolyn songs. I dig Stephen King a lot too. I think he's the greatest fiction writer since Charles Dickens. He totally transcends the genre he's lumped into.

Virtuosity:    What is your favorite Stephen King book?

Brett:   The Stand.

Virtuosity:    You've obviously read some C.S. Lewis.  What inspiration have you taken from him over the years?  Have you ever read anything by Lewis' mentor George MacDonald? If not, I highly recommend his book Lilith, mythopoeic dream-allegory fantasy.

Brett:       I've read a bunch of Lewis' books. I dug the movie "Shadowlands" with Anthony Hopkins playing Lewis. "The Screwtape Letters" is the only one that overtly influenced me into writing a tune. I've never read any George MacDonald...I will. Phillip Yancey is someone I've been into lately on that level.

Virtuosity:    What new music have you been listening to or inspired by lately?

Brett:       I'm listening to the new Gomez album as we speak. I like the new Neil Finn album quite a bit. Elliot Smith, Aimee Mann, Built To Spill, Neil Young are all things I've been digging.

Virtuosity:   Are there any newer progressive bands out there that really turn your ear?

Brett:    I think all those people I just mentioned are extremely progressive when it comes to songwriting. If you mean prog bands...I'm not up on any of the stuff. It all sounds the same to me. Sorry if I sound so "not into prog music" I like music that progresses and to me most prog bands don't sound progressive...more regressive.

Virtuosity:     What do you think of Jeff Buckley (ie, Grace)?

Brett:      He brings tears to my eyes; a gifted singer and musician. The song "Grace" floored me the first time I heard it.  We were in Penn State University setting up for a gig later that night and Chris came over to me and said you have to check out this guy on the television. We ran over and watched the video for the song...I bought the album the next day.

Virtuosity:     You are exiled to a desert island for a year and you can only take works by one author, one rock band, and twelve cases of your favorite beverage.  What would they be?

Brett:

1. Stephen King
2. The Beatles
3. Bell Haven Scottish Ale

Virtuosity:    And finally, what person/character out of the Bible do you most relate to?

Brett:       Any of the apostles with their endless questions, doubting, complaining, and faith...

Virtuosity:    Thanks for taking the time to chat, Brett.   I will also be doing a thorough review of Mei that I will try to post concurrently with the interview.

Brett:     Dave, thanks my friend. Great questions! Nice job.

Go to http://www.echolyn.com  for more information on Brett Kull and echolyn